What kicks besides a sidekick...

[TSDTexan]

Question: in the OP picture, the step is behind. In the video the step at 15 seconds is in front. Which do you mean?

This cross step combined with the weight sink onto the front foot in the video suggests one or both of two things:

1) pulling the opponent downward with the hands to unbalance and facilitate the backfist.

2) stomping with weight and onto the opponents instep, pinning the opponent's foot before striking with the backfist as a takedown, damaging the opponent's the ankle

The same principle appears at the end of Taegeuk O Jang, and some of the Taegeuk form sequences smell like Naihanchi.

Sorry for the late reply.
I got really busy over the weekend.
Rewatching the dvd with my notebook out.
I saw what I missed the first time.
Chosei does a bunkai and the kick is a front snap kick from the right leg and it is a left leg step over/in front of the person.
The misunderstanding is the various kata types of naihanchi shodan. Like the 15 second mark on my earlier tsd vid link.

Motobu ryu does this same kata to the left in the older way too...
Here is chosei doing it to the right.(slow mo)

.

And to the left.

and sometimes does a step behind, as well as the more common cross step in front.

Since the stepbehind rear version is somewhat unknown in naifanchi/nihanchi/tekki I was trying to suss the secret kick out on this version.

Since the kata is a bisected symmetrical form that mirrors itelf either direction. Starting direction doesnt matter much other than tradition's sake.

But I still wonder what kick "Bushi" Matsumura on the stepbehind version. And what the Chinese Kempo back on the mainland would most likely have thrown with that front line leg.

 

[clfsean]

And what the Chinese Kempo back on the mainland would most likely have thrown with that front line leg.

Couple of ways to look at this so the least resistant version is ... it depends. But given southern CMA nature & especially those in the Fujian area where OMA is said to have been influenced. It would've been low lined looking to break the balance & structure, as well a limb as a buy one get one bonus.

 

[elder999]

The reason I ask is Chosei Motobu said there is a hidden technique. Here, and I think its a kick.
.

Not a kick.

Not a secret.

Question I always, always,always ask for kata and bunkei, and insist my students ask as well:

Where is the enemy?

 

[TSDTexan]

Not a kick.

Not a secret.

Question I always, always,always ask for kata and bunkei, and insist my students ask as well:

Where is the enemy?

Before you either to the left or rightside, stepping out of kiba dachi. Within arms reach.

 

[TSDTexan]

Couple of ways to look at this so the least resistant version is ... it depends. But given southern CMA nature & especially those in the Fujian area where OMA is said to have been influenced. It would've been low lined looking to break the balance & structure, as well a limb as a buy one get one bonus.

Side kick to the knee.

 

[clfsean]

Side kick to the knee.

Again, maybe. I have arthritis in my hips. The posting & turning for a proper sidekick makes me opt for the smack in the face from an opponent than kicking them. So I do lots of front, cross & circled kicks that don't involve posting my body like a side kick. I promise you, if i were to do anything like that kata, there wouldn't be a side anything kick. I could tell you what went there, but I'd do what I can.

 

[TSDTexan]

Again, maybe. I have arthritis in my hips. The posting & turning for a proper sidekick makes me opt for the smack in the face from an opponent than kicking them. So I do lots of front, cross & circled kicks that don't involve posting my body like a side kick. I promise you, if i were to do anything like that kata, there wouldn't be a side anything kick. I could tell you what went there, but I'd do what I can.

My take on OMA is practicality was paramount.
Inability to chamber a s.k. is cause for substitution.

 

[Koshiki]

Many, many, many applications pulled from kata are benefited by a low side or cross/stomp kick to the knee, or a quick partial sweep to the leg with your stance, perhaps Naihanchi particularly so. Personally, I like many applications from the Naihanchi series with this implied legwork. However, it depends on what you mean here...

Before you either to the left or rightside, stepping out of kiba dachi. Within arms reach.

Do you mean that your opponent is to the left/right, as in to the direction you are moving, or do you mean that they are towards the left or right side of your forward arc? Put another way, is your opponent situated more in area A, or in areas B? I've been assuming A, which leads to very different application possibilities than B...

 

[Koshiki]

P.S. Three cheers for the Ryan Parker clip. One of my faves.

 

[elder999]

Before you either to the left or rightside, stepping out of kiba dachi. Within arms reach.

If that's the case, then think about it, and what the motion itself entails, not what "could come from it."

Before you either to the left or rightside, stepping out of kiba dachi. Within arms reach.

What do you step into? What do the hands do when doing so?

 

[TSDTexan]

If that's the case, then think about it, and what the motion itself entails, not what "could come from it."


What do you step into? What do the hands do when doing so?

It could be that you are steping into
Kosa-dachi (交差立, Crossing stance)

From kiba-dachi, bring the (left) back leg forward so that the back knee is almost tucked in to the back of the front (right) knee, with only the toes and ball of the back (left) foot on the floor.

Depending on the ryuha style, the back (left) foot may be directly behind the front (right) foot, or out to the side of the front (right) foot, so that the legs are crossed.

But traditionaly in the Kosa-dachi the front leg has 90% rear leg has 10%...
This specific weight distribution in the stance would not be good for kicking with the front leg.

As for what the hands are doing...the kata looks like:
Slowly turn your head 90 degrees to look left. Check

Slowly turn your head 180 degrees to look right. Check

Step your left foot to your right, then your right foot to your right, as you drop into naihanchi dachi. Check.

As you step, the hands pivot on the middle knuckles of the middle fingers, until the hands and arms are parallel at the solar plexus level, and the right hand pushes straight out to your right*, extending your arm perfectly straight striking with a veritcal spearhand strike, palm facing forward, as if striking with the fingertips, {alternately some ryuha go: * and your hand open (thumb cocked), palm facing forward, striking with the knife edge of the hand}, while you pull your left hand back in a hikite position.
This precedes the elbow strike.

..........
So please, sempai... tell me what is positioned to happen or happen here. I value your input deeply.
I will not argue against your bunkai. I just want to hear your thoughts in the matter. I am already in agreement with whatever you say because I am looking at utilizing it in a lesson plan for next week. Bunkai should be experienced and experimental? Right?

 

[TSDTexan]

Many, many, many applications pulled from kata are benefited by a low side or cross/stomp kick to the knee, or a quick partial sweep to the leg with your stance, perhaps Naihanchi particularly so. Personally, I like many applications from the Naihanchi series with this implied legwork. However, it depends on what you mean here...

Do you mean that your opponent is to the left/right, as in to the direction you are moving, or do you mean that they are towards the left or right side of your forward arc? Put another way, is your opponent situated more in area A, or in areas B? I've been assuming A, which leads to very different application possibilities than B...
View attachment 19584

They (he) are in the direction you are moving.
Either in B zone or in between B and A zones.

We know that because the embusen 演武線 of the kata is not forward/backward like sanchin kata. It is Lateral.
Therefore, we are moving laterally to an opponent in our port or starboard directly. Scuttling like a crab.

But the kata also teaches the target moves into zone A which is why the backfist and frontkicks into zone A exist. The kata either teaches that in the fight the defender moves from fighting on the right side, then on the centerline before defending on his left side OR is remaining on his right towards the enemy and dealing with attacks on several body sides left body, right body and centerline.

 

[elder999]

It
So please, sempai... tell me what is positioned to happen or happen here. I value your input deeply.
I will not argue against your bunkai. I just want to hear your thoughts in the matter. I am already in agreement with whatever you say because I am looking at utilizing it in a lesson plan for next week. Bunkai should be experienced and experimental? Right?

hey=I rely pretty heavily on the Socratic method. I ask questions until you find your own answer-I'm not gonna just give it to you.

Some hints:

1) Usually, if it's called a "secret," it's hidden......in plain sight.
2) What's there is what's there-the "secret" isn't something that's added to the kata. It's in the kata.
3) So, when the step occurs to the right in the direction of the opponent into kiba dachi, where does that foot land in regards to the opponent?

 

[TSDTexan]

hey=I rely pretty heavily on the Socratic method. I ask questions until you find your own answer-I'm not gonna just give it to you.

Some hints:

1) Usually, if it's called a "secret," it's hidden......in plain sight.
2) What's there is what's there-the "secret" isn't something that's added to the kata. It's in the kata.
3) So, when the step occurs to the right in the direction of the opponent into kiba dachi, where does that foot land in regards to the opponent?

Re1:
But we don't see it because it is staring us in the face.

Re2: If has been removed/substituted from/with in the kata but verbally communicated when a disciple has been granted closed door or inner door status. It "the acctual technique" cannot be seen from the kata until disclosure or a lucky observation.... eg enlightenment epiphanie experience.

Re3. Towards him but not at him. It maybe tenshin aspect of taisubaki. Closing distance by slowing the attack. An article that I was reading early this morning. . . broached this subject

Good article... but focus on the 5 paragraphs prior to the Conclusion header. Starting with the sentence "
But what if there is no meaningful stepping - either forward or back "
And ending with the bold font word Conclusion.

The Way of Least Resistance: Body movement in kata - what does it mean?

 

[elder999]

Re1:
But we don't see it because it is staring us in the face

Yippers.

Another hint: do it in tandem with an opponent, and experiment with body placement.

Re2: If has been removed/substituted from/with in the kata but verbally communicated when a disciple has been granted closed door or inner door status. It "the acctual technique" cannot be seen from the kata until disclosure or a lucky observation.... eg enlightenment epiphanie experience.

Nope. It's right there, in plain sight. Not removed. Not substituted.

What you see is what you get.

Re3. Towards him but not at him. It maybe tenshin aspect of taisubaki. Closing distance by slowing the attack. An article that I was reading early this morning. . . broached this subject

Last time: where are your feet in relationship to your adversary?

Good article... but focus on the 5 paragraphs prior to the Conclusion header. Starting with the sentence "
But what if there is no meaningful stepping - either forward or back "
And ending with the bold font word Conclusion.
The Way of Least Resistance: Body movement in kata - what does it mean?

Yeah. A little too much thinking, and in another direction altogether-not wrong, just not simple.

This is simple.

One last hint: most of the time you see hands coming together in Okinawan systems, it's implying something besides a strike or a block.

 

[elder999]

Yippers.

Another hint: do it in tandem with an opponent, and experiment with body placement.



Nope. It's right there, in plain sight. Not removed. Not substituted.

What you see is what you get.




Last time: where are your feet in relationship to your adversary?



Yeah. A little too much thinking, and in another direction altogether-not wrong, just not simple.

This is simple.

One last hint: most of the time you see hands coming together in Okinawan systems, it's implying something besides a strike or a block.

Screw it.

You liked his article. Here he is in a video.....talking too much (surprise! ), and not quite right, but he has kind of the gist of it.

Mind you, while I say he has the gist of it, the way it's demonstrated, and basically the way he moves are.....off......the whole wrist grab thing is off......the cross-step is off. The rest of it is nearly correct, though I'm not convinced.

If I used this correctly on someone, they'd be falling down with some pretty significant damage. He hasn't demonstrated (here) that this is what would occur.....his body dynamics are all wrong: he's not sinking his weight properly, and he's way too far away......of course, he's demonstrating and talking at the same time, and that might be why...which is why I hate it...

 

[TSDTexan]

Yippers.

Another hint: do it in tandem with an opponent, and experiment with body placement.



Nope. It's right there, in plain sight. Not removed. Not substituted.

What you see is what you get.




Last time: where are your feet in relationship to your adversary?



Yeah. A little too much thinking, and in another direction altogether-not wrong, just not simple.

This is simple.

One last hint: most of the time you see hands coming together in Okinawan systems, it's implying something besides a strike or a block.

The one last hint... not a block, not a strike... uses both hand is a grab, lock, break.... or a grab, throw/takedown.

My general presumption with regard to cma/oma forms is body distance is desired to be from elbow strike to mid forearm distance apart from centerline to centerline.
With Naifanchin, nihanchi we are rotating our cenerline 90° left or right from our opponent's body.

With Tekki and Shotokan forms the distance between the two increases in the forms and in kumite.
I don't know how that fits into your line of Kyokushin, if your line leans more Gojo (closer distance infighting) more outfighting from the Funakoshi side of your line.

Having spent a lot of time with a variety of Kyokushin guys chatting and sparing... I have learned there is quite a spectrum of ranges you guys fight in.

Perhaps I should go back and reread Essential Karate and see if Mas has anything specific to say about distance and preferable range.


I will echo some thoughts that I have have heard and my own experiences agree with. This is a rabbit trail off the OP... but eventually gets back to the issue of distance and range.

Back in the 50's to late 60's - the sport of Kyokushin - knockdown karate hadn't even been dreamed up yet - so fighters trained at that time didn't really have the lack of punching defense that a lot of Kyokushinka seem to be plagued with today.

Fighters back in those days were far more well rounded than kyokushinka today - an example of this is in 1963/64 when Sosai Oyama sent three kyokushin karateka; Tadashi Nakamura, Akio Fujihira & Kenji Kurosaki to compete against Nak Muay

If the general HQ of most Kyokushin outfits of today tried to do the same - I wouldn't be surprised to see many of their fighters raped & sent back to Japan - that's the difference between now & then - the reason for the difference is because of knockdown karate - Kyokushin pre 2nd world tournament became more & more geared for the knockdown karate rule-set until today.....

where it's just pretty much geared for knockdown solely now
It is thankfully, not the case everywhere..

( very off topic asside: Back in the 70's (perhaps 76'), Kenji Kurosaki who was with Sosai Oyama since their Goju-ryu days, (although Sosai was his sempai), didn't like the direction Kyokushin was going in with knockdown karate & felt it took away from what Kyokushin was & left the IKO in 76' to form...

The Kurosaki dojo where he would eventually teach Toshio Fujiwara (first foreigner to win a serious title in Thailand), the dutch (Bluming, Plaas and co. - who are the fathers of Dutch Kickboxing from out of the style Kurosaki taught which was a blend of mainly kyokushin with slight muay thai influences).)

When knockdown karate came into effect in '69 with the first all Japan tournament - fighters even then up until the second world tournament IMO didn't have the serious flaws that most KK fighters of today suffer from

(if you watch early knockdown footage & compare it to now, you'll notice how the distance is different)

- a classic example of a fighter who was a beast back then was Shihan Howard Collins ---

ALSO it has to be mentioned that early Kyokushinka were much more well rounded fighters than the ones today because they didn't really gear themselves to the knockdown rule-set plus a very large percentage of kyokushin fighters back in the early days were also Judoka.

Which makes for some seriouly mean Japanese dudes.
Gojo + Judo equal "no joke-ah"!

 

[TSDTexan]

Screw it.

You liked his article. Here he is in a video.....talking too much (surprise! ), and not quite right, but he has kind of the gist of it.

Mind you, while I say he has the gist of it, the way it's demonstrated, and basically the way he moves are.....off......the whole wrist grab thing is off......the cross-step is off. The rest of it is nearly correct, though I'm not convinced.

If I used this correctly on someone, they'd be falling down with some pretty significant damage. He hasn't demonstrated (here) that this is what would occur.....his body dynamics are all wrong: he's not sinking his weight properly, and he's way too far away......of course, he's demonstrating and talking at the same time, and that might be why...which is why I hate it...

When he does the flying knee block... I just shake my head.
There is no root to backfist and elbowstrike from. The rest seemed workable.

 

[JowGaWolf]

At about the 15 second mark.

1. Should I be trying to throw a kick from that position?
2. Are there other things that are better suited for attacking from that position?

The picture of the guy in the video post #11 don't have the same stance. The rooted and advancing leg are different. The cross stance in the picture allows for a retreat, spinning backfist, spinning hook, hook, uppercut, or sweep while the cross stance in the video doesn't allow for a retreat attack. I don't think the position itself is a hidden technique I think it hides some of the techniques that can follow after it. For the cross stance In the picture I wouldn't do a kick at all. I'm assuming that the cross stance in the picture is similar to the one that I use where that my hands are attacking/distracting, my left foot is advancing at the same time, which would give me an opportunity to attack low with my right leg once my left leg becomes the root.

The video in post #11 of the guy doing the cross stance at mark 15. Would probably be one that I would only do if someone is doing a front kick to my mid section. Not sure how closely related my use of the cross stance is to the fighting system being discussed.

 

[Buka]

Might be due to lacking as a student on my part, but I see little passion, little oomph in any of the videos posted in this thread. (I know, I'm a heathen)