What kicks besides a sidekick...
- Thread starter TSDTexan
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Back hook/turning heel kick would be awkward from the front leg IMO, though maybe I'm not thinking about it the right way. But otherwise, yeah, pretty much whatever. Roundhouse, front, ax, crescent, hook.
I'm unclear about the relationship of the photo to the question, though, since I don't know that form. Can you clarify that?
I'm unclear about the relationship of the photo to the question, though, since I don't know that form. Can you clarify that?
Koshiki
Brown Belt
Yeah, kicks are bi-leg-ual...
That said, there is usually some slight requisite modification when performing a kick from front or rear leg. The hips may shift differently, if you chamber, the chamber may be placed at a slightly different angle, the overall arc of the leg will obviously change in most cases...
But these are generally small, mainly instinctual differences.
My system of TKD performs front, side, round, inside and outside crescents, stomp, rising, axe, hook, inverted, and back kicks, as well as related variants of said kicks. And, while some kicks are certainly easier and more natural from either the front or rear leg, we do all of them from both.
Dinkydoo
Purple Belt
I'm assumimg that the target is where the guy in the photograph's focus is.....therefore quite a few kicks would be a bit ackward from that stance (I said roundhouse, but upon reflection I dont think it would be a great option). A front kick would definitely feel dodgy, you'd have to pivot on the back foot to throw it properly
A hook kick is a hook kick, regardless of what twists we impose on the body setting it up.
The picture just shows a practitioner in a cross stance, like in Koryo. In Koryo, the rear foot passes in front of the lead foot, while in this picture it passes to the rear of the lead foot. Most commonly it's used to close distance to execute a side kick. Personally, I prefer to cross in the rear for side kicks or hook kicks, and to the front for roundhouses or front kicks. But that's a personal preference, not an absolute.
Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.
OP
OP
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
The reason I ask is Chosei Motobu said there is a hidden technique. Here, and I think its a kick.
I will have to watch the dvd again.
Unfortunately it has no subs. And I don't understand his Japanese that well.
And the english voice overs are incomplete.
I am trying to find a written transcript.
He steps behind instead of steping in front the way most do nihanchi.
And this is one of the things his dad Choki taught him.
So I am trying different kicks from this position. The sidekick feels natural but is that be cause of the countless number I have fired off in the position or because thats what goes there.
I will have to watch the dvd again.
Unfortunately it has no subs. And I don't understand his Japanese that well.
And the english voice overs are incomplete.
I am trying to find a written transcript.
He steps behind instead of steping in front the way most do nihanchi.
And this is one of the things his dad Choki taught him.
So I am trying different kicks from this position. The sidekick feels natural but is that be cause of the countless number I have fired off in the position or because thats what goes there.
OP
OP
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
OP
OP
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
Yes... this exact position.
Its not a general what kicks can a front leg throw question. It is what kicks can be thrown by the front leg in this specific stance.
Target is either to his right hand side directly, or on diag perhaps 45° between his front and his right.
Koshiki
Brown Belt
Or a leg off-balancing, or a takedown, although i think we may do this motion in slightly, yet significantly different ways...
Thanks, that's a big help. So is the goal (with the foot crossing behind) still to end up moving laterally to the right into a horse stance, like in the video? In that case, if the hidden technique is a kick, I think it would have to be a right leg side kick or hook kick. Though.... crossing the foot behind would make it easier to hook kick, while you can do side kick ok either way.
But it sounds like you're not sure if the hidden technique is even a kick, is that the case? I'm asking because the guy in this video is doing more than just a simple cross-step, there's a whole weight distribution thing going on. Maybe the hidden technique isn't a strike at all.
ETA: Oh, I had a thought.... low hook to the knee or ankle and then the arm technique following is done as a sweep to the chest?
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Koshiki
Brown Belt
I may be a little unclear on what is meant by "hidden technique" here. It's not a term or mindset I tend to really apply to Kata. I guess I was thinking, when I read that, more of a technique which is present in the motion as is, but is not self-evident, rather than something, like a kick, which must be added. Something not so much hidden as omitted. Not that it really matters what we call it, but are you looking for a hidden application of the current movement, or are you looking for other techniques which could be added to the current movement to alter it's intent?
For my own understanding of Tekki/Naihanchi, most applications I practice involve the opponent being somewhere in the front 120o arc or so, rather than to the side, so if we're actually talking about a kick within the context of Naihanchi, that would greatly change which kicks I might tend towards.
I thought you were just talking about kicks that could be executed from a cross legged stance in general, my bad!
In the context of Naihanchi application, I would probably suggest a low level side kick at about 45o, or an inverted round kick, although a sweep in the direction and path of the step might go a long way towards both those goals too...
For my own understanding of Tekki/Naihanchi, most applications I practice involve the opponent being somewhere in the front 120o arc or so, rather than to the side, so if we're actually talking about a kick within the context of Naihanchi, that would greatly change which kicks I might tend towards.
I thought you were just talking about kicks that could be executed from a cross legged stance in general, my bad!
In the context of Naihanchi application, I would probably suggest a low level side kick at about 45o, or an inverted round kick, although a sweep in the direction and path of the step might go a long way towards both those goals too...
OP
OP
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
I will rewatch the dvd in the morning and do a look-see the words used again.
Elsewhere, the footsweeps flicking out from the knee are actually hidden front snap kicks.
Chosei said his father said there are a few hidden techniques in this Kata. Considering that Choki did the kata 500 times each day, and it was his primary focus... even his area of expertise.
He said this kata contained all the fundamentals of karate that you would need in a real fight.
So... I am tring to figure out which kick belongs in that one spot.
About tekki...
Tekki is a deviation that is based on Naifanchi.
G. Funakoshi spent almost ten years learning how to do Naifanchi under Itosu. (But not the hinans/pinans) Itosu pretty much demanded that his students do it 10,000 times exactly the way itosu ordered, before giving them their next kata.
Word is that Itosu created the second and third nihanchi katas. Either by scratchbuilding or by breaking up an older longer chinese version of Naifanchi.
Sokon "Bushi" Matsumura brought it back from China.
Gitchen was never taught by the man who brought it back from China. Choki and his brother both were.
At any rate, what began to be taught by G.F. in Japan was something very different than what he was trained in.
So Tekki is a lesser version of the Naifanchi that GF knew.
The common assumption is that nihanchi is fighting two directions with a wall at your back, against multiple attackers.
However this is the very thing Choki spoke about.
- The position of the legs and hips in Naifuanchin (the old name for Naihanchi) no Kata is the basics of karate."
- "Twisting to the left or right from the Naifuanchin stance will give you the stance used in a real confrontation. Twisting one's way of thinking about Naifuanchin left and right, the various meanings in each movement of the kata will also become clear."
- "The blocking hand must be able to become the attacking hand in an instant. Blocking with one hand and then countering with the other is not true bujutsu. Real bujutsu presses forward and blocks and counters in the same motion."
The attackers are not plural, but singular, and the left and right are directions from the defender's body structure.
Here is some great analysis of Nihanchi kata.
That bears this in mind.
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Unless you are kicking behind you.
Gnarlie
Master of Arts
Question: in the OP picture, the step is behind. In the video the step at 15 seconds is in front. Which do you mean?
This cross step combined with the weight sink onto the front foot in the video suggests one or both of two things:
1) pulling the opponent downward with the hands to unbalance and facilitate the backfist.
2) stomping with weight and onto the opponents instep, pinning the opponent's foot before striking with the backfist as a takedown, damaging the opponent's the ankle
The same principle appears at the end of Taegeuk O Jang, and some of the Taegeuk form sequences smell like Naihanchi.
This cross step combined with the weight sink onto the front foot in the video suggests one or both of two things:
1) pulling the opponent downward with the hands to unbalance and facilitate the backfist.
2) stomping with weight and onto the opponents instep, pinning the opponent's foot before striking with the backfist as a takedown, damaging the opponent's the ankle
The same principle appears at the end of Taegeuk O Jang, and some of the Taegeuk form sequences smell like Naihanchi.
It's a broad question. As far as mechanics, a lot of kicks can be thrown from that transitional step.
But if we break it down further, It depends. It depends on the "who", the "when" the "in what", the "where". "the how" and the old "against whom?'
As for "the who". There are advanced Tae-kwon-do kickers who can hit you from anywhere.
Case in point - working in the forced busing days, high school kids had fights on a daily basis, some of them quite violent. One day, two of them were being arrested for fighting. They were both handcuffed (behind their back) and a BPD officer was walking them out to the wagon. Three of us were trailing behind them. The officer was in the middle and was holding each by the upper arm as they walked up a short flight of stairs to the exit. One of the kids, 17 year old Johnny D, had been training in Martial Arts since he was a wee kid. Really nice kid who had been defending himself from the other, a violent trouble maker. Johnny D could kick like all get out. The other kid was yelling at the officer during the whole perp walk, Johnny didn't utter a sound. At the third step Johnny raised his leg (behind the officer's back) and roundkicked the other kid behind the head. Just a snappy roundhouse, which he whipped back down and never broke stride. The trouble maker's head snapped, he yelped and stumbled. The officer jerked him back up. We had to peel off to the side, covering our mouths trying to stop the laughter.
It was one of the funniest (and coolest) things I've seen to this day.
So the answer to the question of "What kind of kick can you throw on a set of stairs while your hands are cuffed behind your back?" would probably be "that's a silly question" or no kick, not in in real life". But then, Johnny had some really skilled TKD and I saw it. (hell, I still laughed writing this)
As to the "in what" - , mechanics aside, what I'm refering to is in what kind of sparring are we talking about? Don't get me wrong, you can still throw anything you want, but If we are Karate/TKD sport sparring the answer might differ than if we are doing any kind of ring fighting or continous motion sparring (no stopping for points) Not that you can't throw it, but if it's easilly countered that might limit your options.
I should interject here that I've been using that step and kick for longer than I care to admit. I love it.
"The how" Joe Lewis used to use that step for a sidekick a lot in sport Karate. He was incredibly strong and incredibly fast. When he threw it - he stomped the floor with his steps. I mean really stomped it. He considered it "blasting off the ground" and said it should never be thrown "slowly, lightly or with compassion in your heart". Some saw it coming and blocked it. Some retreated. But the ones that blocked it couldn't use their arm again for the next ten minutes, or their shoulder or whatever, the ones that ran usually got caught and were sent flying - usually considered a push with no point awarded. But it shook them so much their game face would look different. It would look scared.
I spent many hours in my kitchen discussing this step and kick with Joe. He said that as much as he loved it he didn't use it often in ring fighting (PKA) because it was too easilly countered.
As to "the where" if it's outside the dojo "the where" means a lot. I live in New England. There's ice, snow and slush on the ground three months of the year. And I'm wearing boots. The boots change your timing because of their weight. The ice changes your traction in a fast step. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it becomes far less practical outside of the perfect conditions of the dojo.
"The when". If we're sparring and I catch you napping, or you're circling back and forth, or stay flat footed for a sec too long, or (obviously) you protect your head but pay little attention to your body, you're going to get blasted. (I'm still talking side kick here.)
If you're a counter figher who likes to counter kicks, especially sliding to my backside, I'm going to have to use it more judiciously...or get blasted myself.
As to the other kicks usually thrown from that step, again, it depends. When you throw the hook kick from a step-in-front cross step, if you're moving real fast and the hook misses - there's a beat where you're real vulnerable recovering. You can actually recover quicker if you were slightly below your top speed.
If you hit to the head, you're fine, but sometimes if you miss and hit the shoulder or a high guard (both of you with right side forward, say) your balance is throw off a bit if you threw really hard.. and sometimes takes two beats to correct.
But if you can really hook kick - it's as much fun as Christmas. No, really.
As was said - you can make that step behind your lead foot, in front of your lead foot, or just bring your feet together. Bill Wallace used to bring them together. He had tremendous success with that.
With a roundhouse - if you're stepping behind the lead leg, you sometimes either jam your kick or have to shave off part of the angle open to you. Long as you can do it, you can do it.
As to the "against whom". Other than a side kick, a hook kick or a roundhouse, I don't think you're actully going to land any others against a savvy fighter. Especially against a savvy kicker. You can throw them, sure, but I don't think you'll land them to often. Go try against a TKD guy who's a more experienced kicker than you. Betcha you won't try it again.
But if we break it down further, It depends. It depends on the "who", the "when" the "in what", the "where". "the how" and the old "against whom?'
As for "the who". There are advanced Tae-kwon-do kickers who can hit you from anywhere.
Case in point - working in the forced busing days, high school kids had fights on a daily basis, some of them quite violent. One day, two of them were being arrested for fighting. They were both handcuffed (behind their back) and a BPD officer was walking them out to the wagon. Three of us were trailing behind them. The officer was in the middle and was holding each by the upper arm as they walked up a short flight of stairs to the exit. One of the kids, 17 year old Johnny D, had been training in Martial Arts since he was a wee kid. Really nice kid who had been defending himself from the other, a violent trouble maker. Johnny D could kick like all get out. The other kid was yelling at the officer during the whole perp walk, Johnny didn't utter a sound. At the third step Johnny raised his leg (behind the officer's back) and roundkicked the other kid behind the head. Just a snappy roundhouse, which he whipped back down and never broke stride. The trouble maker's head snapped, he yelped and stumbled. The officer jerked him back up. We had to peel off to the side, covering our mouths trying to stop the laughter.
It was one of the funniest (and coolest) things I've seen to this day.
So the answer to the question of "What kind of kick can you throw on a set of stairs while your hands are cuffed behind your back?" would probably be "that's a silly question" or no kick, not in in real life". But then, Johnny had some really skilled TKD and I saw it. (hell, I still laughed writing this)
As to the "in what" - , mechanics aside, what I'm refering to is in what kind of sparring are we talking about? Don't get me wrong, you can still throw anything you want, but If we are Karate/TKD sport sparring the answer might differ than if we are doing any kind of ring fighting or continous motion sparring (no stopping for points) Not that you can't throw it, but if it's easilly countered that might limit your options.
I should interject here that I've been using that step and kick for longer than I care to admit. I love it.
"The how" Joe Lewis used to use that step for a sidekick a lot in sport Karate. He was incredibly strong and incredibly fast. When he threw it - he stomped the floor with his steps. I mean really stomped it. He considered it "blasting off the ground" and said it should never be thrown "slowly, lightly or with compassion in your heart". Some saw it coming and blocked it. Some retreated. But the ones that blocked it couldn't use their arm again for the next ten minutes, or their shoulder or whatever, the ones that ran usually got caught and were sent flying - usually considered a push with no point awarded. But it shook them so much their game face would look different. It would look scared.
I spent many hours in my kitchen discussing this step and kick with Joe. He said that as much as he loved it he didn't use it often in ring fighting (PKA) because it was too easilly countered.
As to "the where" if it's outside the dojo "the where" means a lot. I live in New England. There's ice, snow and slush on the ground three months of the year. And I'm wearing boots. The boots change your timing because of their weight. The ice changes your traction in a fast step. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it becomes far less practical outside of the perfect conditions of the dojo.
"The when". If we're sparring and I catch you napping, or you're circling back and forth, or stay flat footed for a sec too long, or (obviously) you protect your head but pay little attention to your body, you're going to get blasted. (I'm still talking side kick here.)
If you're a counter figher who likes to counter kicks, especially sliding to my backside, I'm going to have to use it more judiciously...or get blasted myself.
As to the other kicks usually thrown from that step, again, it depends. When you throw the hook kick from a step-in-front cross step, if you're moving real fast and the hook misses - there's a beat where you're real vulnerable recovering. You can actually recover quicker if you were slightly below your top speed.
If you hit to the head, you're fine, but sometimes if you miss and hit the shoulder or a high guard (both of you with right side forward, say) your balance is throw off a bit if you threw really hard.. and sometimes takes two beats to correct.
But if you can really hook kick - it's as much fun as Christmas. No, really.
As was said - you can make that step behind your lead foot, in front of your lead foot, or just bring your feet together. Bill Wallace used to bring them together. He had tremendous success with that.
With a roundhouse - if you're stepping behind the lead leg, you sometimes either jam your kick or have to shave off part of the angle open to you. Long as you can do it, you can do it.
As to the "against whom". Other than a side kick, a hook kick or a roundhouse, I don't think you're actully going to land any others against a savvy fighter. Especially against a savvy kicker. You can throw them, sure, but I don't think you'll land them to often. Go try against a TKD guy who's a more experienced kicker than you. Betcha you won't try it again.
