What kamae you like

[Chris Parker]

Let's see if I can translate:

"The bujinkan uses ichimonji no kamae as their first" Do you mean its the first kamae taught? That would make sense as usually the ninpo kihon happo are taught early on and quite a few of them begin in ichimonji.

"But seigan is correct eye in swords training" ...ok? It's "correct eye" no matter what 'cause that's what the word means. Are you reffering to Chris mentioning Seigan no kamae in koto ryu? Did you not know it is also an unarmed kamae, or a kamae with staff weapons?

"Hiar is fat but i see you wasnt dis but is are physical expressions that i do every day" This statement makes no sense. I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Agreed with the translation... and with the confusion at the end there.

In regards to Seigan no Kamae, well, let's see.

Koto Ryu teaches Hidari Seigan no Kamae and Migi Seigan no Kamae in it's Koppojutsu methods.

Shinden Fudo Ryu Jutaijutsu has both Seigan no Kamae and Katate Seigan no Kamae.

(Hontai) Takagi Yoshin Ryu has Katate Seigan no Kamae (quite different to SFR's kamae of the same name).

Togakure Ryu Biken has Seigan no Kamae, as well as variants.

Kukishinden Ryu has Seigan no Kamae in it's Dakentaijutsu, Seigan no Kamae in it's Rokushakubojutsu, Seigan no Kamae in it's Jojutsu, Seigan no Kamae in it's Kenpo, Seigan no Kamae and Naka Seigan no Kamae for Kodachi, Seigan no Kamae and Naka Seigan no Kamae for Naginata and Bisentojutsu, Seigan no Kamae for Yari.... then you have other lines of Kukishin Ryu with Seigan no Kamae for Hanbo and so forth....

It's a pretty common name for a kamae, when it all comes down to it.

 

[Troy Wideman]

Hi Chris,

Just curious, which lineage are you referring to inrelation to the Takagi Yoshin Ryu having Katate Seigan No Kamae.


Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

 

[Aiki Lee]

Also why would Koto ryu differentiate between a left and right sided seigan no kamae?

 

[blackswordshinobi]

that i do every day translate meaning i trained every day togakure ryu ninjutsu and ninpo is what i am studing point of the kamae not where come from there basic stances postuer to get read go into a fight christ might right but what you think is me be mad it wasnt Seigan No Kamae is in lot martial arts!

 

[Bester]

that i do every day translate meaning i trained every day togakure ryu ninjutsu and ninpo is what i am studing point of the kamae not where come from there basic stances postuer to get read go into a fight christ might right but what you think is me be mad it wasnt Seigan No Kamae is in lot martial arts!

What?

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Chris,

Just curious, which lineage are you referring to inrelation to the Takagi Yoshin Ryu having Katate Seigan No Kamae.


Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

Hi Troy, good to see you again!

I've heard it associated with both the Ishitani and Mizuta-den lines (although not really taught in the Bujinkan form of the Mizuta-den). I've been told by Genbukan members that the "common" form of Katate Seigan used in the KJJR is a variation of the kamae from the Ishitani-den HTYR. Of course, I'm always thrilled to get better information if this is out.

Also why would Koto ryu differentiate between a left and right sided seigan no kamae?

Because they do...

that i do every day translate meaning i trained every day togakure ryu ninjutsu and ninpo is what i am studing point of the kamae not where come from there basic stances postuer to get read go into a fight christ might right but what you think is me be mad it wasnt Seigan No Kamae is in lot martial arts!

You don't train in Togakure Ryu, Billy. You may have some elements in what you're using as home study material, but you don't train in Togakure Ryu itself. That much is very obvious.

 

[blackswordshinobi]

who cares you talk until blue in face im training togakure ryu ninjutsu and ninpo most gogoy no kata is five elements furm so want tell you more
gyokko ryu kinon hoppo is part togakure ryu ninjutsu ....................

 

[Chris Parker]

No, it's not. Gyokko Ryu is Gyokko Ryu, Togakure Ryu is Togakure Ryu, they are separate (but related) systems.

Can you describe the structure of Togakure Ryu?

 

[Troy Wideman]

Hi Chris,

Actually it is almost the reverse. The Mizuta den line has 5 official kamae that are used and usually in a specific section of the ryu ha. The ishitani den line does not really have a kamae section that is taught. It is usually demonstrated with shizen kamae, however, Tanemura sensei does use the katate seigan from the KJJR within the ryu ha, same as the one I used to demonstrate the patterns on my youtube video. There are other kamae's used but just not taught seperately as a sections. Hope I made sense.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

Hi Troy, good to see you again!

I've heard it associated with both the Ishitani and Mizuta-den lines (although not really taught in the Bujinkan form of the Mizuta-den). I've been told by Genbukan members that the "common" form of Katate Seigan used in the KJJR is a variation of the kamae from the Ishitani-den HTYR. Of course, I'm always thrilled to get better information if this is out.



Because they do...



You don't train in Togakure Ryu, Billy. You may have some elements in what you're using as home study material, but you don't train in Togakure Ryu itself. That much is very obvious.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Troy,

Yep, perfect sense. I might just PM you on some clarification of details, if you don't mind....

 

[Troy Wideman]

Hi Chris,

Sure.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

 

[Aiki Lee]

Because they do...

Huh. I was kind of hoping there was some deep inciteful purpose to it. Some secret reason that only the truest of the shadow warriors would know. Guess sometimes it is just that simple.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I got asked why I practice stick work with both hands...the EPAK folks only train dominant hand. It's a "because thats how we do it" answer, with the deeper explanation being one of weapon familiarity, ability to adapt should you lose use of the dominant hand, etc. My guess is that's the 'deeper' bit here. Differentiate because 'they do' with the reason being something like that, or just 'lets us know which hand we're working on right now'.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Chris,

Sure.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

Thanks Troy, just gotta clear some room and get my thoughts in order....

Huh. I was kind of hoping there was some deep inciteful purpose to it. Some secret reason that only the truest of the shadow warriors would know. Guess sometimes it is just that simple.

Ha, honestly, Himura, that was the deep and insightful answer... thing is, it gains depth with your understanding of Koto Ryu (in this case), until then, it's really just that simple. The way to get to that depth is to make a serious study of the Ryu in question, then the answers become apparent. Otherwise, it's just one of those quirks, and can be taken as such.

 

[blackswordshinobi]

christ not to be disrespectful but just becaues im not in bujinkan dont mean im not learning togakure ryu ninjutsu an ninpo hayes have three degree's in it fact traning from heart and mind as willing to do it yes you dis me on this but hell to shin do some same teaching in mondern way but this post over any way sorry if you think i was rude to you i wasn't

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The thing is Billy, this is a Traditional Japanese Ninjutsu area. I've got no real issues with Mr. Hayes, I grew up reading his books in fact. But this isn't the place to discuss Quest/Toshindo. We've got a separate area for that. It may be nitpicking, but they are 2 different systems.

 

[Chris Parker]

christ not to be disrespectful but just becaues im not in bujinkan dont mean im not learning togakure ryu ninjutsu an ninpo hayes have three degree's in it fact traning from heart and mind as willing to do it yes you dis me on this but hell to shin do some same teaching in mondern way but this post over any way sorry if you think i was rude to you i wasn't

No, Billy, I didn't think you were being rude, but I don't think you understand what you're talking about.

Togakure Ryu is a specific Ryu, a specific system within the teachings of the Bujinkan and related schools. And it is one of the rarest to find anyone who actually knows much about it, as there is actually very little in the school by way of techniques.

I'll put it this way: If you're training in the Kihon Happo, you're not training in Togakure Ryu.

If you're training in Sanshin no Gata, you're not training in Togakure Ryu.

If you're training with Kusari Fundo, you're not training in Togakure Ryu.

If you're using the term Ukemi to refer to breakfalls and rolls, you're not training in Togakure Ryu.

If your training involves techniques against strikes or kicks, you're not training in Togakure Ryu.

When you're training methods and techniques from Kukishinden Ryu, including all the weapon work, you're not training in Togakure Ryu.

When you're training in methods and techniques from Shinden Fudo Ryu, you're not training in Togakure Ryu.

When you're training in methods and technqiues from Gyokko Ryu, you're not training in Togakure Ryu.

When you're training in methods and techniques from Koto Ryu, you're not training in Togakure Ryu.

When you're training in methods and techniques from Takagi Yoshin Ryu, you're not training in Togakure Ryu.

If you're training in a modern form, you're not training in Togakure Ryu.

From all of your posts and videos, you're not training in Togakure Ryu.

Really, although the Togakure Ryu name used to be used to refer to all the teachings, that is not the case. And Stephen Hayes, in his early books, used the Togakure Ryu name to refer to a lot of things that weren't Togakure Ryu at all... either because he didn't know, or he didn't understand.

If you still want to say you're training in Togakure Ryu, can you describe the way the school is structured? For example, Gyokko Ryu is structured with Jo Ryaku no Maki, Chu Ryaku no Maki, Ge Ryaku no Maki (with the Kihon Gata before that), Koto Ryu is structured with Shoden no Gata, Hekito no Gata, Chuden no Gata, and Okuden no Gata, Kukishinden Ryu Dakentaijutsu is structured with Shoden Gata, Chuden Gata, Sabaki Gata, Okuden Gata, and Shirabe Moguri Gata... and I can explain each and every section of each, what they are made up of, and why they are structured that way.

Can you explain the way Togakure Ryu is structured, and the differences between each level?

 

[Troy Wideman]

Hi Chris,

Tried to respond to you but your message box is full.

Troy

 

[The Last Legionary]

Can you explain the way Togakure Ryu is structured, and the differences between each level?

Billy?

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Chris,

Tried to respond to you but your message box is full.

Troy

Sorry, Troy, just had a power outage here for the last hour or so.... some room is cleared again now.