What is the line of child endangerment?

[Ping898]

So I am wondering, especially for the parents on this board, at what point does something become child endangerment? There are things my parents did when I was growing up (that I have no problem that they did), that these days would get them arrested...but now a woman who left a sleeping 2 year old in the car on a crappy day and was 10 feet away, never out of sight of the car is being charge....does that go too far?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080312/ap_on_re_us/mom_on_trial;_ylt=AtY8AfOgcm17DXljpSISwnqs0NUE

Mom faces trial for leaving child in car


Treffly Coyne was out of her car for just minutes and no more than 10 yards away

But that was long and far enough to land her in court after a police officer spotted her sleeping 2-year-old daughter alone in the vehicle; Coyne had taken her two older daughters to pour $8.29 in coins into a Salvation Army kettle.
Minutes later, she was under arrest — the focus of both a police investigation and a probe by the state's child welfare agency. Now the case that has become an Internet flash point for people who either blast police for overstepping their authority or Coyne for putting a child in danger.
The 36-year-old suburban mother is preparing to go on trial Thursday on misdemeanor charges of child endangerment and obstructing a peace officer. If convicted, she could be sentenced to a year in jail and fined $2,500, even though child welfare workers found no credible evidence of abuse or neglect.

 

[Kacey]

Every other case of this nature that I have seen involved hours and extremely hot weather. This appears (to me) to be a case of overzealousness - there is a law or rule, somewhere, that these officers are responsible for enforcing, that says, more or less, "unattended children in cars are in danger". This is the type of problem that arises when well-meaning people write blanket laws that cover more than they were originally intended to cover.

 

[Ceicei]

[sarcasm]We should be punished for stepping out of our car to pump the gas while our kid is still inside waiting and sleeping. [/sarcasm]

- Ceicei

 

[Drac]

[sarcasm]We should be punished for stepping out of our car to pump the gas while our kid is still inside waiting and sleeping. [/sarcasm]

- Ceicei

[sarcasm] Depends on how BORED I am that day.[sarcasm]

 

[jetboatdeath]

[sarcasm] Depends on how BORED I am that day.[sarcasm]

[sarcasm]Seems to be a problem with alot of leos[sarcasm]

 

[jks9199]

Let me use two real-life examples to address this issue. (I'm not going to second guess the decision to cite; too much depends on issues that are a matter for the jury to decide.)

About 5 or so years ago, on a winter morning in the Greater DC area, a woman left her child strapped in her car seat while she went into the gas station to pay for her gas and get a cup of coffee. When she exited the store a few minutes later -- she got to see the tail lights of her car going down the road. With the child still inside. Fortunately, this case ended happily; the car was recovered, and the mother was reunited with her kid fairly quickly. A lot of luck and some alert patrol officers figured into that happening -- and it very easily could have ended very differently. (I recall another case where the kid was dumped by the side of the road a few miles away... but lack the specifics on that one.)

In another case, which occurred during the summer, I responded to a report of a kid left alone in a car. When we arrived, and forced entry into the car, the child (about 4, as I recall), was already overheated and having some difficulty breathing. Based on what we could determine, it had been no more than 10 or 15 minutes, while the au pair (nanny) went into a nearby dollar store for a phone card. We had rescue respond, and contacted the child's parents. A few more minutes, and this ending too could have been very different.

Now -- I'm not saying that charging someone in this particular case is absolutely the only way to handle it, or even that it's automatically appropriate. But there are some pretty valid concerns that should have been addressed. And depending on the responsiveness of the parent to that information, as well as their general demeanor and attitude... Yeah, citing and/or arresting them is definitely in the realm of possibility.

 

[MA-Caver]

[sarcasm] boy aren't WE all in a mood today? [/sarcasm] :lol:

I think it's a fine line of what can be construed as endangerment. Accidents do happen but that's what they are, accidents and tragic as they may sometimes be the whole picture has to be looked at before assigning blame and neglect to the parent/caretaker of the child.
That the mother was stepping out of the car for a few moments to do a good deed and didn't leave the child out of her sight shouldn't be cited. It's the same as what Ceicei (sarcastically, but rightly) stated as being outside your car fueling while the kid(s) are in the back. Going INTO the store I would think varies a great deal. A convenience store where one would be paying for the gas could be "forgiven" as not everyone has a credit/debit/gas card and thus must pay by cash (or prefers to pay that way). But lingering for longer than necessary, i.e. going in and hopefully not in a big line, giving the cash and telling the clerk that you want $20.00 on pump #2 isn't abandoning the children.
Anyone with children would know what a hassle it is to get all of them outta the car into the store and back into the car without depleting one's cash on getting candy/snacks/whatever!

To me child endangerment is when the child's health, life is at risk and risk of bodily harm and all due to neglect. Purposeful neglect, lack of common sense or just plain ignorance.
Is it endangerment if the kid climbing on the monkey bars falls through several layers banging their body on the way down? Or what about falling off the ladder on the high slide? Or out of the swing at the height of it's arc?

Is this why parents are sometimes "over-protective"? So much so that sometimes kids are just busting loose to be free and they go out and become the stuff we decry here on MT because of poor parenting?

Good question: where is the line?

 

[jetboatdeath]

Just on the news here in Chicago Land
Police Dropped the charges......

 

[Ceicei]

Just on the news here in Chicago Land
Police Dropped the charges......

Good news indeed! Do you have a link to that? Thank you.

- Ceicei

 

[jetboatdeath]

Good news indeed! Do you have a link to that? Thank you.

- Ceicei

Yep
http://www.myfoxchicago.com/myfox/p...n=4&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

[sarcasm] Seems to be a problem with alot of leos[sarcasm]

[



What problem is that....???

Just on the news here in Chicago Land
Police Dropped the charges......

Just as a point of fact, police don't drop charges. They can't. Either the City Attorney or the District Attorney's Office decide to drop the charges.

 

[CoryKS]

This happened in Kansas City a few years ago.

I don't ever leave my kid in the car. This story gave me nightmares for weeks.

 

[Drac]

Someday people will STOP leaving their kids in their cars....There was a recent car theft here ..The owner stepped only 10 steps away from his vehicle to drop of DVD's in the return slot..The perps ran up slim-jimmed the door and were gone in about 10-15 seconds...The car was found in the inner-city..Can you imagine IF there would have been a child in the car????

 

[Archangel M]

I think that leaving a child in a car unattended is always a bad idea, but short of some sort of temperature issue of other circumstance I think its a stretch to say that you are endangering simply for leaving the child in the car. It depends on the totality of the circumstances and what the officer can articulate.

Heres a typical endangering statute...

A person is guilty of endangering the welfare of a child when:
1. He knowingly acts in a manner likely to be injurious to the
physical, mental or moral welfare of a child less than seventeen years
old or directs or authorizes such child to engage in an occupation
involving a substantial risk of danger to his life or health; or

Is simply leaving a child in a "climate safe" vehicle "likely to be injurious to the
physical, mental or moral welfare of a child "? An arresting officer would have to be making assumptions that some other person could...carjack...kidnapp..etc. But are any of us legally responsible for what some other person might do? I could never let my kids ride their bikes or play unattended in the yard if thats the case.

Its a fine line. All I can say here is that the system worked. The DA looked at the case and dropped it. I would hope the DA gave the arresting agency some direction for future arrests of this sort.

 

[Drac]

What problem is that....??

I believe he was answering my post about how bored I was that day...

 

[Ceicei]

A little more detail to this situation, especially the last few paragraphs.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23615083/

- Ceicei

 

[Archangel M]

While its your right to refuse to answer questions, not giving your name or info to an officer investigating a crime is probably going to result in getting arrested.

 

[MA-Caver]

A little more detail to this situation, especially the last few paragraphs.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23615083/

- Ceicei

In a way she was right following her husband's instructions on not saying anything further to the police til he arrived. But purposeful with-holding information at the scene just makes matters worse sometimes because by having information the LEO's on the scene can make a better assessment of what's going on and make an informed choice/decision. It's definitely a sticky to be sure.

Interesting was I clicked on the additional link provided by msn that gives readers responses to the incident. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23597193/
Here are a couple of them...

Good grief, I just left my two in a car next to the library while I dropped off books this morning in the outside book drop. It was locked and was always in my sight with my safety break on. Were my 4-year-old and my 18-month-old really at risk in those two minutes? Wouldn't it be more riskier to walk them across the parking lot? Regardless, I won't ever do it again. I certainly wouldn't want to be put in this poor mother's shoes.
— Anonymous

We just had two children die in our village under similar circumstances because of a car fire. The mother was only out of the car a few minutes, and that's all it took. She has to live with that for the rest of her life. I have actually done the same thing myself and been lucky enough that nothing ever happened.
— Anonymous

Interesting with the (above) entry and this is perhaps what spurred the police to take action against the mother in question. Since cops hear/read about these stories more often than we do and sometimes unfortunately, they're there at the scene and have seen the terrible aftermath of these tragedies. That sort of thing sticks with you.

I get riled when I see kids bouncing around inside cars without safety restraints as I've seen photos of accidents involving unrestrained children in moving vehicles. The child usually doesn't survive.

Still there must be a line drawn somewhere. That the mother had full view of the vehicle throughout shouldn't be a just cause for this type of arrest. Sitting inside a restaurant having lunch/dinner next to a window with view of the vehicle and sleeping (children) inside ... I think is recklessness. It takes longer to get up out of the chair/booth and out the door and to the car than it would to go directly to the car when you're already outside. It follows Ceicei's gas pump analogy.

Where is the line?

 

[Empty Hands]

There's a serious lack of perspective in the argument that "OMG car jackers only took 10 seconds to steal the car right next to you!" so you should never ever leave your kids in the car. Not a single one of us, including our children, are completely safe in any context. A meteor could crash down on my Fort Knox of a home. A child could be struck by an out of control car crossing a parking lot with her mother. The front wave of a nearby gamma ray burst could hit Earth in the next five seconds and every single one of us will die no matter where we are. We shouldn't paralyze our lives due to very low probability events (I'm looking at you Dick Cheney!).

The proper question is whether the mother was putting her child in extra undue danger by doing what she did. Since the incidence of heat stroke or car jacking is pretty low when you are gone for 2-3 minutes and standing 30 feet away, I would have to say that this standard hasn't been met and prosecution should be off the table. Thankfully, it looks like the prosecutors in the case agree.