Parents convicted of murder for using faith-healing on unconscious 11 year old daughter.

[arnisador]

Wis. jury: Father guilty in prayer death case

A central Wisconsin man accused of killing his 11-year-old daughter by praying instead of seeking medical care was found guilty Saturday of second-degree reckless homicide.

Dale Neumann, 47, was convicted in the March 23, 2008, death of his daughter, Madeline, from undiagnosed diabetes. Prosecutors contended he should have rushed the girl to a hospital because she couldn't walk, talk, eat or drink. Instead, Madeline died on the floor of the family's rural Weston home as people surrounded her and prayed. Someone called 911 when she stopped breathing.
[...]
Leilani Neumann, 41, was convicted on the same charge in the spring. Marathon County Circuit Judge Vincent Howard set Oct. 6 for sentencing for both parents, who face up to 25 years in prison.

I'm pleased to see this verdict. I don't doubt that the parents miss their daughter and feel very bad already, but a message has to be sent that minors are due a certain minimal standard of care by their guardians. A child who couldn't walk, talk, eat,or drink should have been given medical care--not Christian faith-healing, a witch doctor, voodoo, or any other nonmedical attention in lieu of it. Failure to do so is indeed manslaughter at the least.

Longer story here.

 

[Omar B]

It's sad that in this day a child should die because of faith.

I could go on but I'll save pissing off the religiousos on here.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

So much for allowing people the freedom to act on their beliefs, huh. I guess we should just go around telling everyone what to believe and how to act....

Oh, wait............

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It's sad that in this day a child should die because of faith.

I could go on but I'll save pissing off the religiousos on here.

I could call myself religious; I'm certainly a believer. But I would agree with you that the parents should have sought medical treatment. There was nothing stopping them taking the child to the doctor AND praying for her.

 

[Omar B]

That's the point, they didn't take the child to the doctor, rather, they tried to wish her back to health.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

That's the point, they didn't take the child to the doctor, rather, they tried to wish her back to health.

And my point is that prayer, whether it is real or imagined to work, would not hurt in addition to prompt medical attention. Everyone's belief systems are different, but mine does not hold that medical attention is equivalent to not trusting God to heal. There is nothing saying that God does not work through doctors and modern medicine.

I feel the parents erred, and using God as an excuse for it is horrible.

 

[arnisador]

So much for allowing people the freedom to act on their beliefs, huh. I guess we should just go around telling everyone what to believe and how to act....

I don't mind if a competent adult prays himself to death. This was an 11 year old kid who fell unconscious.

But I would agree with you that the parents should have sought medical treatment. There was nothing stopping them taking the child to the doctor AND praying for her.

Yup.

 

[Bruno@MT]

So much for allowing people the freedom to act on their beliefs, huh. I guess we should just go around telling everyone what to believe and how to act....

Oh, wait............

If they had prayed in addition to providing actual care to someone in their charge who needed,
that would have been fine. Denying care in favor of praying is negligence and should be punished.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I have no quarrel with the concept of a "higher power", it's the people claiming to be its "followers" that scare the **** outta me.

 

[cdunn]

So much for allowing people the freedom to act on their beliefs, huh. I guess we should just go around telling everyone what to believe and how to act....

Oh, wait............

Your right to swing your fist around as you please ends at my nose.

 

[celtic_crippler]

The main issue is that a child was involved. Children are granted certain protections because under the law it's accepted that they are incapable of making certain decisions for themselves due to lack of experience and education.

If you're an adult and want to die instead of seeking health care you can, but a minor can not throw their lives away so easily in the state's eyes; regardless of religeous beliefs.

...perhaps not the place for a joke but in this case I think it applies:

Man sitting on his rook during a flood when a man from the bank of the swollen river yells, "Hey! I have a rope I can toss you! You catch it and I'll pull you to safety!"

The man on the roof shakes his head, "No thanks! I have faith that the Lord will protect me!"

The water continues to rise and a man in a boat comes within distance and yells, "Hey! Climb down and I'll take you to safety in my boat!"

The man on the roof shakes his head, "No thanks! I have faith that the Lord will protect me!"

Hours pass and the water is now all the way up to the roof when a helicoptor comes by. A man with a megaphone yells, "Hey! I'll thow down a rope ladder so you can climb up! We'll fly you to safety!"

The man on the roof shakes his head, "No thanks! I have faith that the Lord will protect me!"

So...the helicoptor flys off and the man eventually drowns.

He wakes up in heaven and sees Jesus hanging out by the entrance near the pearly gates and yells, "Hey! Jesus! Why am I dead? I had faith that you would protect me from the flood! I don't understand!"

Jesus turns to the guy and says, "Dude! I sent you a rope, a boat, and a helicoptor! What else do you want from me?"

 

[CoryKS]

Came in here wondering how this could have been a "murder" case, unless the authorities determined that the parents wanted the girl to die and were using religion as a front.

Reading TFA, it appears that the conviction is "reckless homicide", which is what the case sounded like in the first place.

Reckless homicide != murder.

 

[Tez3]

So much for allowing people the freedom to act on their beliefs, huh. I guess we should just go around telling everyone what to believe and how to act....

Oh, wait............

If this happened in front of you, could you watch the child die? Can you put your money where your mouth is and allow the parents to follow their beliefs which will lead to the death of a child or is your argument purely made from a distance and the safety of knowing that you don't have to make any decisions about it?
A great many things are wonderful in theory, practice is a little different.

 

[teekin]

Well Tez, it aint His ( 5.0 Kenpo) kid.
lori

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

My point, to be quite honest, is that there are those making this argument who constantly contend that we should leave people alone, let them do whatever they want based on their personal beliefs.

But not in this case. I just find it a tad hypocritical. And for some reason, it always comes up when the discussion is in regards to religion.

And would I stand by and watch it happen, absolutely not. But neither is that my point. I believe that sometimes butting into someone else's business is a good thing.

 

[Frostbite]

My point, to be quite honest, is that there are those making this argument who constantly contend that we should leave people alone, let them do whatever they want based on their personal beliefs.

But not in this case. I just find it a tad hypocritical. And for some reason, it always comes up when the discussion is in regards to religion.

And would I stand by and watch it happen, absolutely not. But neither is that my point. I believe that sometimes butting into someone else's business is a good thing.

Well, as I see it, the difference is that the child can't give consent. When it comes to lifesaving measures and general child welfare, courts should be able to step in to mandate treatments that are in the child's best interest. If we were to talk about adults who choose to pray instead of getting medical treatment, I'm sure most of us would agree that it might not be the best choice but that ultimately they should be able to choose.

If it weren't for courts stepping in and overruling parents' wishes, we'd probably see a lot fewer kids being taken out of meth labs or taken away from abusive parents.

 

[teekin]

]My point, to be quite honest, is that there are those making this argument who constantly contend that we should leave people alone, let them do whatever they want based on their personal beliefs.[/B]

But not in this case. I just find it a tad hypocritical. And for some reason, it always comes up when the discussion is in regards to religion.

And would I stand by and watch it happen, absolutely not. But neither is that my point. I believe that sometimes butting into someone else's business is a good thing.

Perhaps I am just thick (a lot of people would heartily agree with this), but What is your point again? Perhaps I just misunderstood your 1st post, it wouldn't be that surprising if I did. Can you clarify for me please sir?
lori

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

My point is that there are those that have posted here, that decry the government from getting involved in people's personal beliefs, even when it affects others, including children. And yet it seems to me, that they have no problems with making their underlying beliefs "flexible" for when the government should become involved. And this usually ends up happening when the issue affects their own belief system.

So, as I see it, there are those here that are being hypocritical when it comes to this issue. They have no problem with the government interfering with these people's belief system, but should the government try to affect theirs, stand by.

Now understand, I am not making a legal argument, but more of a philosophical one. If the state says that this is murder, then so be it.

Hope this helps....

 

[teekin]

My point is that there are those that have posted here, that decry the government from getting involved in people's personal beliefs, even when it affects others, including children. And yet it seems to me, that they have no problems with making their underlying beliefs "flexible" for when the government should become involved. And this usually ends up happening when the issue affects their own belief system.

So, as I see it, there are those here that are being hypocritical when it comes to this issue. They have no problem with the government interfering with these people's belief system, but should the government try to affect theirs, stand by.

Now understand, I am not making a legal argument, but more of a philosophical one. If the state says that this is murder, then so be it.

Hope this helps....

Ahhhhh, now I get it. Charging these parents with some form of murder for not taking their child to a medical expert in time is within the governments mandate but providing information on how Not to catch a fatal STD is just an invasion of the Holy Grail of family structure, most not Ricky-tick . And that is a hypocritical stance. ( Am I close? In the ballpark, near the stadium)
lori

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

The title of this thread is misleading. They did not use faith healing on her while she was unconscious. Second thing is noone knew she had Diabetes as stated here:

The father testified that he thought Madeline had the flu or a fever, and several relatives and family friends said they also did not realize how sick she was.

If you look at her symptoms they do not fit the symptoms of Diabetes:Excessive thirst,frequent urination,weight loss,vomiting,ab pain,acetone breath,rapid deep breathing.

The symptoms she displayed were: couldn't walk, talk, eat or drink. which could be just about anything. The article does not say how long she displayed the symptoms no how severe or other symptoms that may have hinted at Diabetes. My Mother displayed extreme excessive thirst that can not be quenched the first thought I had was Diabetes.
The father did not use faith healing on her with Diabetes as stated here:

The father testified that he thought Madeline had the flu or a fever, and several relatives and family friends said they also did not realize how sick she was.

Her symptoms as listed on the article fit more a stomach bug then they do Diabetes or Diabetic shock. When the girl stopped breathing someone did call 911. The question is did the girl display symptoms for a long period of time or just on that day? How severe were her symptoms what other symptoms did she display that may have hinted the girl was Diabetic? Many cases exist were a person shows signs of mild symptoms such as a stomach ache when in fact they could be having a heart attack,headache brain tumor you can see how easily a person can mistake symptoms and especially symptoms that are the opposite of the very disease the person has. Not wanting to drink or eat is the opposite symptom of Diabetes.