What Is Reality Based Self-Defense?

[K-man]

when i look at de escalation it generally seems fairly primitive. There seems to be no structure to it.

say we compared it to sales. Which has similar tactics and aims. Their methods can be incredibly comprehensive.

You have told us that you have done a lot of door work. You have also told us of the many fights you have experienced. It's not drawing a long bow to suggest you may not have gad a lot of training in this area.

Having trained people in sales, I would agree. There are a number of similarities but I have to disagree with primitive. Body language is important in sales as it is in de-escalation. The same could be said for personal space and distance, tone of voice, volume, body positioning, assertive behaviour, eye contact, confidence, perceived knowledge and your movements. Again, Geoff Thompson has produced volumes on the subject and from what I have seen, it's a big part of his training.

 

[Transk53]

say we compared it to sales. Which has similar tactics and aims. Their methods can be incredibly comprehensive.

Jeez Louise, you are supposed to be a doorman, not a salesman! Sales, that is the flyer honey's

 

[Tony Dismukes]

My understanding of the RBSD term is probably pretty close to Chris's. What distinguishes it from other approaches is not the "butt kicking", but the heavy focus on the pre and post conflict stages.

Some of the best self-defense training I ever got was via some seminars a cop friend/training partner (Will Shepard, now deceased) of mine put on years ago, before the RBSD term was popularized. It was mostly scenario based, and we covered recognizing danger, avoiding danger, recognizing when to fight, recognizing when not to fight, and avoiding legal trouble afterwards in a variety of situations. 99% of the time was spent pre and post fight. The scenarios contained hidden pitfalls and forced you to think on the fly and were more emotionally demanding (for me anyway) than outright sparring would have been.

We didn't even get to cover verbal de-escalation or handling the emotional aftermath, but those would have been good additions to the material.

Unfortunately, the definition of RBSD is somewhat muddied even by those purporting to teach it. When Sammy Franco says "It's all about learning how to fight" or Chris St-Jacques claims that RBSD instructors need to come from an LEO or military background (even though the needs of LEOs and military personnel are different from those of civilian self defense), then they are undermining an important concept - that real self-defense is about a lot more than fighting and the non-fighting aspects can be trained as well.

 

[K-man]

Jeez Louise, you are supposed to be a doorman, not a salesman! Sales, that is the flyer honey's

No, I disagree. As a doorman you are selling your product. How you react is important to the business you are working in. Being able to control the door without resorting to violence is a huge part of it. Getting someone out of a place without them causing damage along the way also requires skill. The skills from one transfer to the other, at least in the direction of the door. DB's apparent people skills on the door may mean he would have a lean time in sales.

 

[Transk53]

No, I disagree. As a doorman you are selling your product. How you react is important to the business you are working in. Being able to control the door without resorting to violence is a huge part of it. Getting someone out of a place without them causing damage along the way also requires skill. The skills from one transfer to the other, at least in the direction of the door. DB's apparent people skills on the door may mean he would have a lean time in sales.

Yes to be blunt, I know that K-man. And to be brutally forceful here, I don't think you quite get it, it takes one to know one

 

[Transk53]

No disrespect intended

 

[Steve]

when i look at de escalation it generally seems fairly primitive. There seems to be no structure to it.

say we compared it to sales. Which has similar tactics and aims. Their methods can be incredibly comprehensive.

I've seen a few very comprehensive de-escalation systems. Verbal Judo, for example, is a pretty well known system. While not specific to RBSD, it's pretty solid training on how to deescalate conflict. I went through the training when I was working with daily with people who are disabled and often homeless. As a group, they were very unpredictable, desperate and extremely volatile.

I think this is an interesting example for a few reasons. In particular, this is an example of verbal de-escalation training that has been decoupled from martial arts or combat training. Just reading through the thread so far, it seems to me that for a system to be RBSD, it must necessarily include both combat AND verbal de-escalation training. j

I can see the similarity to sales, and while I don't agree that sales systems are more comprehensive, there are a lot of things that crossover between the two. Verbal Judo and systems like it are also really great ways to become a better sales person.

 

[ballen0351]

No, I disagree. As a doorman you are selling your product. How you react is important to the business you are working in. Being able to control the door without resorting to violence is a huge part of it. Getting someone out of a place without them causing damage along the way also requires skill. The skills from one transfer to the other, at least in the direction of the door. DB's apparent people skills on the door may mean he would have a lean time in sales.

Yeah there is a certain bar where I work with overly aggressive security staff. We get complaints of assaults by the staff every weekend. I've noticed over the years the crowd there getting smaller and smaller as the word gets out. This summer they finally fired them all and hired new staff that treat people better.

 

[Transk53]

I've seen a few very comprehensive de-escalation systems. Verbal Judo, for example, is a pretty well known system. While not specific to RBSD, it's pretty solid training on how to deescalate conflict. I went through the training when I was working with daily with people who are disabled and often homeless. As a group, they were very unpredictable, desperate and extremely volatile.

I think this is an interesting example for a few reasons. In particular, this is an example of verbal de-escalation training that has been decoupled from martial arts or combat training. Just reading through the thread so far, it seems to me that for a system to be RBSD, it must necessarily include both combat AND verbal de-escalation training. j

I can see the similarity to sales, and while I don't agree that sales systems are more comprehensive, there are a lot of things that crossover between the two. Verbal Judo and systems like it are also really great ways to become a better sales person.

Verbal Judo, I have heard of that before

 

[Transk53]

Yeah there is a certain bar where I work with overly aggressive security staff. We get complaints of assaults by the staff every weekend. I've noticed over the years the crowd there getting smaller and smaller as the word gets out. This summer they finally fired them all and hired new staff that treat people better.

Can they do the job?

 

[ballen0351]

Can they do the job?

Who the old staff or the new? The old staff I'd say no since it cost the owners money by treating people poorly and they stopped coming. The new staff well its not hard to walk people to the door and call the police to remove them

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Even from Jim Wagner's site I find these two quotes:

"Training and survival skills based on modern conflict situations that the practitioner is likely to encounter in their environment (their “reality”), in an accordance with the use-of-force continuum of that jurisdiction."
...
"We’ll teach you what few instructors are qualified to teach: defense against terrorist bombings and small arms attacks, criminal style stabbings, carjackings, drive-by shootings, kidnappings, sexual assault, armed robbery, criminal chemical attacks, gang violence, school and workplace massacres, child abductions, sniper attacks – just to name a few."

Honestly, the odds that a typical civilian in the U.S. is likely to personally encounter chemical attacks, sniper attacks, or a workplace massacre in their lifetime is not tremendously reality based. I think a good start to reality based training is to understand what dangers you are likely to actually encounter as opposed to which dangers have emotional salience due to dramatic news coverage.

 

[Transk53]

Who the old staff or the new? The old staff I'd say no since it cost the owners money by treating people poorly and they stopped coming. The new staff well its not hard to walk people to the door and call the police to remove them

Maybe so, maybe not. Walking people to the door. In my world, that is a skill that is intrinsic. I get what you mean though

 

[tkdwarrior]

@Chris Parker

Yes I did say that and I was cautioned already for that and why you had to repeat it here is beyond me is it just to show what a great guy you are or what? Anyway since all of our understanding seem to be wrong regarding RSBD then can you tell or say what is?

 

[tkdwarrior]

If people just leave other people alone, do not steal, rob or hassle you then there should not be any problem. But if people steal, rob, hassle other people then be prepared for the consequences and they will have it coming and may even deserve it. That is all I meant.

 

[tkdwarrior]

As much as possible I stay away from trouble less problem for me and for anyone else who might get involved.

 

[tkdwarrior]

And one more thing chris parker since you were brazen enough to mention that post for which I was cautioned for and it was actually deleted because it was against forum rules. What is your purpose in repeating it here?

Anyway you don't know me and I don't know you. So let us just keep it within the context of this thread. Thank you. If the moderators will not caution me I will be more than happy to talk about it again. I actually have no problem with that.
But as one of the moderators told me it is not allowed so why mention it?Should not the moderators caution you too?

Anyway......

 

[drop bear]

Wrong. There is a structure to it. Don't get unnecessary get punched in the face, don't get bottled etc. You get to choose your ground

not really what i mean about a structure. That is more of a mission statement.

a structure would be how you achieve that.

 

[drop bear]

You have told us that you have done a lot of door work. You have also told us of the many fights you have experienced. It's not drawing a long bow to suggest you may not have gad a lot of training in this area.

Having trained people in sales, I would agree. There are a number of similarities but I have to disagree with primitive. Body language is important in sales as it is in de-escalation. The same could be said for personal space and distance, tone of voice, volume, body positioning, assertive behaviour, eye contact, confidence, perceived knowledge and your movements. Again, Geoff Thompson has produced volumes on the subject and from what I have seen, it's a big part of his training.

have you done door work? Or are you making assumptions again.

 

[drop bear]

And one more thing chris parker since you were brazen enough to mention that post for which I was cautioned for and it was actually deleted because it was against forum rules. What is your purpose in repeating it here?

Anyway you don't know me and I don't know you. So let us just keep it within the context of this thread. Thank you. If the moderators will not caution me I will be more than happy to talk about it again. I actually have no problem with that.
But as one of the moderators told me it is not allowed so why mention it?Should not the moderators caution you too?

Anyway......

you don't find out who the moderators caution and who they don't.

there is no "well he started it" defence.