What is advanced Krav Maga?

Gyuki

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You didn't even recognize him until I told you. You immediately discredited that sparring footage so it's difficult for me to believe you.



It sounds like your training in Krav is mostly about doing choreographed drills w/o sparring, up to hard sparring with knock down or knock out intentions. That's why you'd think that sparring shouldn't look like the video that I posted, which was actual sparring (light); and not from just anyone, but the #3 Chief Instructor of Krav Maga, under its Founder.

It's true, KM is indeed MMA Lite w/weapons training. I think you even posted a video from a Krav Alliance Federation, which requires a "timed round, nonstop, kickboxing or MMA fight" at full contact/full KO criteria, no stop & go, etc. in order to earn a Black Belt.
I would ask that you please make no assumption about my person nor skills in sparring or combat. I fail to see how any of what I have mentioned here or on any post any where has any information on my sparring experience in or outside of class or any tournaments I may or may not have won. Nor do I refer to any extra curricular activities I may or may not take part in.

As per KM Alliance, it is indeed their ways of evaluating at higher level in 1 aspect yes. Is there room for improvement? Absolutely yes. The hard combat aspect does not relate to specific KM fighting but to get student used to continual combat. Some also choose to do that exercise without protections. Others with more and or weapons involved. It is to be seen as one of the many drills. Definitely not one that reflects KM sparring per say. Because, again, it has a different goal.

But at this point, I dont think I can explain this in other ways or enrich the conversation any further. I understand how you view KM and I am not trying to change that. I don't care really.

If ever this thread gets back to the actual topic then great. But at this point it seems more like a misunderstanding where one party chooses to be antagonistic and closed minded.

In short, I aint got time to waste talking to a wall. Bonsoir
 

isshinryuronin

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The issue to me is losing the basic and methodology of the system as soon as it comes to live sparring/combat.
This is a great insight, and common in most karate (and no doubt other MA) dojo. (I'll tie into KM shortly) It stems from the separation of the "art" from its combat origins. Students are taught these as two separate entities. This may be due to the instructor's commercial concerns, and/or not really understanding the system they're teaching. In TMA (what I'm most familiar with) one learns kata and one learns how to fight, but what has often been lost is the realization that they are (originally) the same thing.

To return closer to KM, here's a quote from Krav Maga Worldwide's website re: its history:

"As Lichtenfeld [KM's developer] increased the range of Krav Maga, the number of students grew. To keep up with this massive following, Lichtenfeld adapted Krav Maga to better fit the lives of all individuals...Lichtenfeld made it easy for all..."

As you can see, KM's evolution from a pure combat skill to a popular "art" closely parallels that of karate. And along with that change came the separation between principles and combat execution that you referred to in the quote.
 

drop bear

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This is a great insight, and common in most karate (and no doubt other MA) dojo. (I'll tie into KM shortly) It stems from the separation of the "art" from its combat origins. Students are taught these as two separate entities. This may be due to the instructor's commercial concerns, and/or not really understanding the system they're teaching. In TMA (what I'm most familiar with) one learns kata and one learns how to fight, but what has often been lost is the realization that they are (originally) the same thing.

To return closer to KM, here's a quote from Krav Maga Worldwide's website re: its history:

"As Lichtenfeld [KM's developer] increased the range of Krav Maga, the number of students grew. To keep up with this massive following, Lichtenfeld adapted Krav Maga to better fit the lives of all individuals...Lichtenfeld made it easy for all..."

As you can see, KM's evolution from a pure combat skill to a popular "art" closely parallels that of karate. And along with that change came the separation between principles and combat execution that you referred to in the quote.

Sorry. Wherever the original quote came from.The reason you don't see these specific self defence methods utilised in sparring It is because they pretty much don't work.

Bursting (the blocking and striking at the same time) is a fantastic example. A staple of krav. Theoretically a great idea. Performs fine in drills. Almost nobody can do it live.

You see krav sparring you never see that move.

I tried it for months against a friend of mine who just wanted to overhand right my head of at every opportunity he could. I could never get it of in time with everything else going on.

You have to be so slick, you need so much ring craft and timing and distance management to set up a situation where you can pull off that specific counter. That it defies the point of learning it in the first place.

So if the concept of a martial art for self defence is this idea of basic and intuitive and able to be done under pressure in a relatively short time. Then what happens in sparring is what someone should focus on. Because at least you can do that thing.

Not this idea that there is this street thing that will work because it is removed from any live training. But has a really cool back story.

That is going to lead to you having a very bad day if you ever have to fight people.
 

TheArtofDave

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Sorry. Wherever the original quote came from.The reason you don't see these specific self defence methods utilised in sparring It is because they pretty much don't work.

Bursting (the blocking and striking at the same time) is a fantastic example. A staple of krav. Theoretically a great idea. Performs fine in drills. Almost nobody can do it live.

You see krav sparring you never see that move.

I tried it for months against a friend of mine who just wanted to overhand right my head of at every opportunity he could. I could never get it of in time with everything else going on.

You have to be so slick, you need so much ring craft and timing and distance management to set up a situation where you can pull off that specific counter. That it defies the point of learning it in the first place.

So if the concept of a martial art for self defence is this idea of basic and intuitive and able to be done under pressure in a relatively short time. Then what happens in sparring is what someone should focus on. Because at least you can do that thing.

Not this idea that there is this street thing that will work because it is removed from any live training. But has a really cool back story.

That is going to lead to you having a very bad day if you ever have to fight people.
I agree. But I would like the advanced KM level of training not to be called MMA-lite. We're definitely not trying to adhere to the short comings of the art or system.

I'll go back and look at the video. But it's hard to consider any improvements or what's advanced KM without seeing classes taped from a student or taping yourself so you can correct or enhance your techniques.
 

drop bear

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Gee. I wonder why you don't see any of this in sparring.


It must be because sparring is super unrealistic.
 

drop bear

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I agree. But I would like the advanced KM level of training not to be called MMA-lite. We're definitely not trying to adhere to the short comings of the art or system.

I'll go back and look at the video. But it's hard to consider any improvements or what's advanced KM without seeing classes taped from a student or taping yourself so you can correct or enhance your techniques.

The thing is. MMA gives you these really core basic ideas to perform in a lot of situations you are going to find yourself when you are in a fight.

Someone punches or kicks you. Someone grabs you, someone throws you, someone sits on you. And a whole bunch of other directions from there.

And you can drill those basic ideas live, at pace and against guys who are legitimately trying to incapacitate you with these same basic ideas.

And you can carry those basic ideas to a point of proficiency that can make you one of the best fighters in the world.

And from there with these kernals of proficiency in fighting take that and apply it to self defence. So if the objective changes the mechanisms used to achieve those objectives don't.

So if you were a boxer for example. And you are on a fight on the street and you think , hey it would be really fin to just eye gouge this dude. You are using all the footwork and timing and distance management you have already honed to achieve that end.

Rather than this weird thing where you stand there perfecting the perfect claw hand for hours at a time. Thinking that is the way to get finger to eye.

The biggest issue you face in krav is most instructors can't legitimately fight well enough to develop faith in their system and so have to go off on these weird story based tangents to justify themselves.
 

drop bear

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I agree. But I would like the advanced KM level of training not to be called MMA-lite. We're definitely not trying to adhere to the short comings of the art or system.

I'll go back and look at the video. But it's hard to consider any improvements or what's advanced KM without seeing classes taped from a student or taping yourself so you can correct or enhance your techniques.

OK. Here is advanced MMA. Being used to effectively incapacitate an attacker. Who is quite simply a bad *** in his own right. Even with gloves even with rules even with a ref.


These are probably the same techniques everyone learns. He just does them better.

Think about this idea. He just sat a military hard charger on his butt with a simple right hand.

If someone could reliably have just that in their tool box. Then they are always dangerous in a fight. Say in a fight against a knife. They get that one split second to let that off. Or multiple opponents. Someone gets a bit confident and eats that shot.

It makes everything else easier if you can hinge off these reliable core techniques.
 
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drop bear

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OK. And while I am on the subject. To understand how to tool your system for fighting. You need to understand fighting meta.

Here is a good one on Ben Askren.

So you develop your priorities to reflect your goals.

And notice by the way he is incidentally doing really cool street related stuff like pinning a potential knife arm with his shin. Or locking the guy in turtle where he could stand and escape at any time.

So imagine you did krav. But you also did folkstyle wrestling.


Suddenly a whole bunch of techniques become easier to pull off because you are just inflicting grapple death on whoever you touch.
 
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jayoliver00

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I would ask that you please make no assumption about my person nor skills in sparring or combat. I fail to see how any of what I have mentioned here or on any post any where has any information on my sparring experience in or outside of class or any tournaments I may or may not have won. Nor do I refer to any extra curricular activities I may or may not take part in.

It was easy really. I based my assessment of your skills on what you said about the video that I posted of the NUMBER 3, Krav Maga Chief Instructor under the Founder himself that you disparaged & countered with a Krav Maga video that was clearly over-sensationalized for marketing purposes, showing mostly choreographed moves, for training.

This just tells me that your skills in sparring is lacking which is why you'd think sparring should look like techniques teaching & training. I'm willing to bet that you don't spar at full power (sometimes) as apart of your training; probably not at, at least, 50% neither.


As per KM Alliance, it is indeed their ways of evaluating at higher level in 1 aspect yes. Is there room for improvement? Absolutely yes. The hard combat aspect does not relate to specific KM fighting but to get student used to continual combat. Some also choose to do that exercise without protections. Others with more and or weapons involved. It is to be seen as one of the many drills. Definitely not one that reflects KM sparring per say. Because, again, it has a different goal.

But at this point, I dont think I can explain this in other ways or enrich the conversation any further. I understand how you view KM and I am not trying to change that. I don't care really.

If ever this thread gets back to the actual topic then great. But at this point it seems more like a misunderstanding where one party chooses to be antagonistic and closed minded.

In short, I aint got time to waste talking to a wall. Bonsoir

Just admit it, you didn't know who BOAZ AVIRAM (the #3 Chief Instructor of Krav Maga) was and said this about him:

"This is the perfect exemple of MMA lite I was referring to. As well as both person not being of high level in any ways... I doubt neither knows what they are doing.
Choosing to ignore proper schools and showing poor exemples found online is something relatively easy..." --Gyuki

You called Boaz Aviram:

1) "not being of high level in any ways"
2) "neither knows what (he's) doing"
3) not from a proper Krav Maga school
4) a poor example, found online
 

jayoliver00

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Gee. I wonder why you don't see any of this in sparring.


It must be because sparring is super unrealistic.

This one Krav Alliance level 4 guy disrespected me just a bit (about 4/10) so later in sparring, I lit him up; but mostly with just jabs & footwork. And this was 8'ish years ago when I wasn't even that good. Now his Instructor was a legit Krav Black Belt & a legit fighter (much younger, stronger & bigger than me) that probably could beat me up (we never sparred though).

My point, he was Level 4 & didn't do any of those moves, just like you said. I've seen him do those choreographed techs in this video & he's excellent....with excellent grunting too. But in sparring didn't do these Krav "burstings", he became a low intermediate Kickboxer who couldn't even get pass my jabs; I mean, I don't think he even touched me (while swinging for the fences to take my head off). And I wasn't even trying to drop him neither (just hard jabs) and maybe 2 landed hooks to warn him.

And this was a very legit Krav Alliance gym with legit BJJ, MT, Wrestling, MMA programs. With 2 Pro fighters that could destroy me & plenty of BJJ's that can do the same. Just not the Krav Maga group, thus, "MMA Lite". Krav was what paid their bills.
 

jayoliver00

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OK. Here is advanced MMA. Being used to effectively incapacitate an attacker. Who is quite simply a bad *** in his own right. Even with gloves even with rules even with a ref.


Homey tried sneaking in those 10oz glove against Condit.
 

jayoliver00

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I agree. But I would like the advanced KM level of training not to be called MMA-lite. We're definitely not trying to adhere to the short comings of the art or system.

I'll go back and look at the video. But it's hard to consider any improvements or what's advanced KM without seeing classes taped from a student or taping yourself so you can correct or enhance your techniques.

Would you accept, Soft MMA? Just kidding. It's really just a lower level of MMA (but w/weapons), as Krav incorporates a lot of Boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ & Wrestling, when it gets to L2 and up.

L1 is when they get people all excited with these videos linked, on this thread. Notice the exciting soundtrack & the Uke's flying all over the place from dudes in camou clothing, wrecking them in demos. This sells; lots of 1yr contracts at $150-200/mo. But L2 is when the Boxing & Muay Thai combos starts. Then the light sparring that looks just like Kickboxing....because jabs & Teeps, stops most to all of that Krav "bursting".

The weapons training in Krav is good, although still, too much sensationalism at their seminars; like they were going to start speaking in tongues next.
 

drop bear

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So an example I found.


If you did this in sparring you would walk in to counter punches.

But if you did this in self defence you would walk in to counter punches.
 

Gyuki

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It was easy really. I based my assessment of your skills on what you said about the video that I posted of the NUMBER 3, Krav Maga Chief Instructor under the Founder himself that you disparaged & countered with a Krav Maga video that was clearly over-sensationalized for marketing purposes, showing mostly choreographed moves, for training.

This just tells me that your skills in sparring is lacking which is why you'd think sparring should look like techniques teaching & training. I'm willing to bet that you don't spar at full power (sometimes) as apart of your training; probably not at, at least, 50% neither.




Just admit it, you didn't know who BOAZ AVIRAM (the #3 Chief Instructor of Krav Maga) was and said this about him:

"This is the perfect exemple of MMA lite I was referring to. As well as both person not being of high level in any ways... I doubt neither knows what they are doing.
Choosing to ignore proper schools and showing poor exemples found online is something relatively easy..." --Gyuki

You called Boaz Aviram:

1) "not being of high level in any ways"
2) "neither knows what (he's) doing"
3) not from a proper Krav Maga school
4) a poor example, found online
Thanks for the insight.

You know my life and experience better then I do.
You know all oh great Sire, I bow to your wealth of knowledge.

I am glad to have learned all I need from this place.
 

Holmejr

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Gee. I wonder why you don't see any of this in sparring.


It must be because sparring is super unrealistic.
Much of it looks like FMA to me :)

Eskrido De Alcuizar
OC CA
World Eskrido Federation
 
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jayoliver00

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Thanks for the insight.

You know my life and experience better then I do.
You know all oh great Sire, I bow to your wealth of knowledge.

I am glad to have learned all I need from this place.

Hey welcome back after announcing your departure. And you're very welcome.
 
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