What I Believe MMA Is Good For

[drop bear105]

Considering what some of the other posters have said on here and considering martial arts people in general Im probably going to ruffle some feathers when I say this but the way I see it, high kicks are mostly for Hollywood. Yes they look really flashy and impressive but they usually aren't all that effective in most real life situations. There are some people who are able to make them work such as Maurice Smith, but they're the exception not the general rule.

Can you support that statement?

 

[drop bear105]

On that note, has anybody here ever seen someone take a solid front snap to chin/jaw and keep fighting?

Yeah. There are Thai fights where it happens.

It was still a good kick. They just fought through it.

 

[Badhabits]

Yeah. There are Thai fights where it happens.

It was still a good kick. They just fought through it.

It's amazing what the body can take and keep going. I've taken a few solid roundhouses to the head. But the thought of a good snap kick to the chin/jaw just scares me.

 

[frank raud54]

If that were the case everybody would be doing those statistically high percentage moves all the time in every and any art.

If people AREN'T doing those statistically high percentage moves all the time, how do those moves become statistically high percentage moves?

 

[PhotonGuy7]

Can you support that statement?

When you throw your kicks high you lose speed, power, accuracy, balance, ect. Kicks are more effective when thrown at mid level or low level, they just look nice when thrown high.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf104]

When you throw your kicks high you lose speed, power, accuracy, balance, ect. Kicks are more effective when thrown at mid level or low level, they just look nice when thrown high.

You're not supporting your statement, you're making a new claim. Can you provide any support for the idea that high kicks are less powerful or accurate?

 

[PhotonGuy7]

You're not supporting your statement, you're making a new claim. Can you provide any support for the idea that high kicks are less powerful or accurate?

My support for my statement would be over three decades of training in Karate as well as lots of training in various other arts.

 

[PhotonGuy7]

No, it's not just you. Lots of people feel that way.

Im sure there's some people, even lots of people as you put it, that share my viewpoint, but that doesn't mean everybody does. I just like to say where Im coming from and see if people agree with me nor not and why. That way I can learn a thing or two.

I think this misses the point of the high-percentage argument. Yes Don Wilson probably lands the side kick more than most people in full-contact matches. But think about the people who land a spinning hook kick (for example) more than they land a round kick. Or people who land the spinning backfist more often than they land a straight cross. That's the argument of high-percentage.

There might be some people who are better at landing spinning hook kicks than round kicks or who are better at landing spinning backfists than straight crosses, which just goes back to my point that exactly what moves are high-percentage does, at least to a certain extent, depend on the person using them.

I really think you should do some looking on YouTube or wherever. After Smith, we've had countless fighters land spinning, flying, etc. moves. We've had capoeira spin kicks landing. Those examples aren't the norm, but people have found ways to implement a broadening range of techniques in MMA. Making those moves highER percentage than once thought.

Im sure there are some people that do make high kicks work but the fact of the matter is when you throw high kicks, and by that I mean kicks that reach the height of a person's head of average height when they're standing straight up, you lose speed, power, accuracy, balance, its easier to get your foot grabbed, and so forth.

That's cool. But understand that MMA is just the latest example of a practice of synthesis that has existed literally since the Ancient World (Greece and Rome). If you're interested, Dr. Michael Poliakoff has an excellent book entitled "Combat Sports in the Ancient World." It's not at all from a modern MMA perspective, and I'm not even clear that the author is big into martial arts. He's a legit academic in the field of humanities.

Yes the ancient Greeks had Pankration which was a form of MMA that was done back then.

 

[ap Oweyn11]

Im sure there's some people, even lots of people as you put it, that share my viewpoint, but that doesn't mean everybody does. I just like to say where Im coming from and see if people agree with me nor not and why. That way I can learn a thing or two.

Yep

There might be some people who are better at landing spinning hook kicks than round kicks or who are better at landing spinning backfists than straight crosses, which just goes back to my point that exactly what moves are high-percentage does, at least to a certain extent, depend on the person using them.

I kinda doubt that, honestly. I'd want to see some evidence of that. You're not on the hook for providing it, obviously. But--as you mentioned above--you want to see if people agree with you. On that count, I don't think I can. If someone practiced the round kick and the spinning hook kick with comparable levels of time and intent, the former is going to land more reliably than the latter.

Im sure there are some people that do make high kicks work but the fact of the matter is when you throw high kicks, and by that I mean kicks that reach the height of a person's head of average height when they're standing straight up, you lose speed, power, accuracy, balance, its easier to get your foot grabbed, and so forth.

That's not a hill I'm interested in dying on, quite frankly. In taekwondo, we were all about the high kicks. In FMA (sikaran, pananjakman, etc.), it's all low, sneaky, stompy kicks. That's lowercase sikaran, not the distinct FMA style Sikaran, which loves its high kicks. But I digress.

Yes the ancient Greeks had Pankration which was a form of MMA that was done back then.

Yep. And there are others that predate the first UFC but much more recently (e.g., Chinese sanshou).

 

[PhotonGuy7]

I kinda doubt that, honestly. I'd want to see some evidence of that. You're not on the hook for providing it, obviously. But--as you mentioned above--you want to see if people agree with you. On that count, I don't think I can. If someone practiced the round kick and the spinning hook kick with comparable levels of time and intent, the former is going to land more reliably than the latter.

Well you're the one who first brought it up, about some people landing spinning hook kicks and spinning backlists more than they land round kicks and straight crosses so if there's any evidence of that it would be up to you to provide it as you are the one that first mentioned it. All Im saying is that if that is true, it just reinforces my point all the more as to what moves work best depends on the person, to a certain extent.

That's not a hill I'm interested in dying on, quite frankly. In taekwondo, we were all about the high kicks. In FMA (sikaran, pananjakman, etc.), it's all low, sneaky, stompy kicks. That's lowercase sikaran, not the distinct FMA style Sikaran, which loves its high kicks. But I digress.

I do know that in Taekwondo they like to throw lots of high kicks and they also do lots of arial techniques, Im not familiar with FMA that focus on empty handed techniques, the FMA that I know of such as Kali focus on stick fighting and it does have some empty handed techniques but not until you get more advanced. Goju Ryu also uses some low stompy kicks. The specific FMA that you mentioned I know nothing about.

Yep. And there are others that predate the first UFC but much more recently (e.g., Chinese sanshou).

Not familiar with Sanshou but I do know that MMA has existed in some form or another for as long as fighting has been around.

 

[drop bear105]

My support for my statement would be over three decades of training in Karate as well as lots of training in various other arts.

So. What MMA is good for is finding out these sorts of things. And creating a sort of mind set where we look to what people successfully achieve. Rather than what we expect people to achieve.

I will throw this one in as well. Because this is kind of common in sparring. You just touch people with that foot and they go over

 

[Kung Fu Wang105]

So. What MMA is good for is finding out these sorts of things. And creating a sort of mind set where we look to what people successfully achieve. Rather than what we expect people to achieve.

This is why MMA guys use single leg, or double legs more than other take downs. To take your opponent down, to attack his leg/legs is more effective than to attack his arm/arms.

 

[PhotonGuy7]

So. What MMA is good for is finding out these sorts of things. And creating a sort of mind set where we look to what people successfully achieve. Rather than what we expect people to achieve.

I will throw this one in as well. Because this is kind of common in sparring. You just touch people with that foot and they go over

There are some people who can pull off knockouts with high kicks but even if you're able to do that, your kicks are going to have more speed, power, reach, and accuracy when thrown mid level.

And for the record, we sometimes do throw high kicks in training, but the main reason we do that is to improve our low kicks.

 

[Prince_Alarming105]

There are some people who can pull off knockouts with high kicks but even if you're able to do that, your kicks are going to have more speed, power, reach, and accuracy when thrown mid level.

Only if your flexibility isn't good enough. It happens because you lean back to gain more height, which is a technical fault. If you've been doing your leg raises and stretching well enough, it's not such an issue.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf104]

There are some people who can pull off knockouts with high kicks but even if you're able to do that, your kicks are going to have more speed, power, reach, and accuracy when thrown mid level.

And for the record, we sometimes do throw high kicks in training, but the main reason we do that is to improve our low kicks.

Out of curiosity, if this were true, why do you think these fighters are choosing to throw a kick that is slower, weaker, shorter, and less accurate, when fighting against a highly skilled opponent. Particularly when it would be easier for them to just not throw the high kick at all.

 

[PhotonGuy7]

Out of curiosity, if this were true, why do you think these fighters are choosing to throw a kick that is slower, weaker, shorter, and less accurate, when fighting against a highly skilled opponent. Particularly when it would be easier for them to just not throw the high kick at all.

Because they see an opening that they can reach with a high kick when there isn't an opening to a lower target. Just because a kick thrown at a certain level is stronger, faster, and more accurate doesn't mean you have an opportunity to land a kick at that level, depending on the situation.

 

[drop bear105]

Because they see an opening that they can reach with a high kick when there isn't an opening to a lower target. Just because a kick thrown at a certain level is stronger, faster, and more accurate doesn't mean you have an opportunity to land a kick at that level, depending on the situation.

Should a question mark kick go the other way then?

Fake to the head. Score the body.

 

[PhotonGuy7]

Should a question mark kick go the other way then?

Fake to the head. Score the body.

There are some techniques that work like that, a fake to the head and a full hit to the body, as to which one is used depends on the situation and what the fighter is good at.

 

[ap Oweyn11]

Well you're the one who first brought it up, about some people landing spinning hook kicks and spinning backlists more than they land round kicks and straight crosses so if there's any evidence of that it would be up to you to provide it as you are the one that first mentioned it. All Im saying is that if that is true, it just reinforces my point all the more as to what moves work best depends on the person, to a certain extent.

No mate. That's not what I said. I said that I'd be surprised to find people who trained equally hard in both techniques but had more luck landing the spinning backfist than the straight cross or the spinning hook kick more than the round kick. Point being that, all other things being equal, the simpler techniques will be landed more reliably (i.e., higher percentage).

I do know that in Taekwondo they like to throw lots of high kicks and they also do lots of arial techniques, Im not familiar with FMA that focus on empty handed techniques, the FMA that I know of such as Kali focus on stick fighting and it does have some empty handed techniques but not until you get more advanced. Goju Ryu also uses some low stompy kicks. The specific FMA that you mentioned I know nothing about.

I started in taekwondo. I'm familiar.

FMA is confusing, I'll grant you. Kali isn't actually an FMA. It's a generic term describing FMA, as are "eskrima" and "arnis." A couple of the styles I've studied (e.g., Doce Pares) have shifted from using one or the other term to match the popular term of the day (i.e., we shifted from saying "Doce Pares Arnis" to "Doce Pares Eskrima").

Many FMA styles begin with sticks and progress through knives, swords, etc. Then to empty hands. Though the exact sequencing (if they're sequenced at all) varies from school to school. For us, kicking and punching were introduced fairly early on. The most characteristic kick was called sipa, though I've seen the same kick in savate (coup de pied), gung fu (cross kick), and JKD (oblique kick).

A very simple, low-line kick to your point.

There are FMA styles that feel like Filipino interpretations of other styles that feature empty hand more prominently off the bat: Geronimo Meliton's Sikaran (taekwondo) and Yaw Yan (muay thai / kickboxing).

 

[PhotonGuy7]

No mate. That's not what I said. I said that I'd be surprised to find people who trained equally hard in both techniques but had more luck landing the spinning backfist than the straight cross or the spinning hook kick more than the round kick. Point being that, all other things being equal, the simpler techniques will be landed more reliably (i.e., higher percentage).

If that's what you meant in post #58 then I stand corrected but I agree that the simpler techniques are usually the most effective and as you put, higher percentage, but what Im saying is, among the simpler techniques, you have to find out which ones work best for you as that can vary from person to person.

For instance, Don Wilson and Bruce Lee were very good with the sidekick as I mentioned earlier in this thread.

Anderson Silva and Lyoto Machida made very good use of the front kick as I also mentioned earlier.

And then there are other fighters that make very good use of techniques such as the roundhouse kick or the reverse punch.

All those techniques I mentioned, the sidekick, the front kick, the roundhouse kick, and the reverse punch are very simple techniques that you learn as a beginner. You have to find out which ones work best for you, are you like Bruce Lee and Don Wilson and good with the sidekick? Are you like Silva and Machida and good with the front kick? Are you good with the reverse punch? What specific simple techniques work best for you? That varies from person to person.

In other words, among the higher percentage techniques, exactly which ones are highest percentage depends on the person.