What exactly is the difference between "modern" and "old-school" Taekwondo?

[Ivan]

I have watched a lot of Taekwondo sparring on YouTube, and every time I scroll down the comment section I see comments such as - "Ooh old school Taekwondo was better". I tried to look into this and I found this video:

From what I saw, and what the narrator was saying, there was something different but I can't quite place it. From what I see:

• They kept their hands higher up in their guard. Now personally I keep my right hand raised to my chin, and my left down low and relaxed as it feels it helps me to have faster and more fluid movement.
• They people in the video seem to be considerably more aggressive than their "modern" competitive counterparts. You can hear constant "kiai", though I don't know the terms for it in Korean.
• The narrator mentioned how the practitioners "flicked their hips forward more". From what I understood, this made their kicks have a larger range as their body would have more momentum, and this also resulted in more power.

But I can't tell if I am missing anything? I feel as if there's another obvious difference that I am not quite getting. Can you guys spot anything?

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I think it was largely it became more and more sportinised and watered down. And after the death of the creator and the splitting of the orgnisation that sort of lead to those difficulties. The fragmenting meant lots of diffrent standards for isntructors and instructors and that sort of deal. A budding orginsation that wants to spread cant have a pass out rate of isntructors of 1% after all. (and expand rapidly)

i havent done "old school", but that seems to be the big diffrence, modern is more sport focused, at least in the big 2 orgnisations. I think the creators org is still around now days, or at least his style is.

This is other than just generic times changing.

 

[_Simon_]

Ahh everyone says 'old-school' was so much better. For like, eeeeverything haha.

I remember some people I've chatted with, anytime I'd bring up a technique or method, it was predictable that they'd go "ohhh we never did that in the old days, in the old days we did this and we trained harrrrd in the old days"

I'm just bored, don't mind me [emoji14]

 

[dancingalone]

I have watched a lot of Taekwondo sparring on YouTube, and every time I scroll down the comment section I see comments such as - "Ooh old school Taekwondo was better". I tried to look into this and I found this video:

I am a dinosaur, but when I read that sentiment, I generally think people are referring to really old sparring from the 1950s to 1970s or so. The kind without protective gear and where the sport hadn't evolved yet to where kicks were preferred because of the higher points awarded. Basically old school karate matches with hard contact, heavy punches, and sweeps are allowed.

 

[Ivan]

I am a dinosaur, but when I read that sentiment, I generally think people are referring to really old sparring from the 1950s to 1970s or so. The kind without protective gear and where the sport hadn't evolved yet to where kicks were preferred because of the higher points awarded. Basically old school karate matches with hard contact, heavy punches, and sweeps are allowed.

Sounds awesome. Why did it change?

 

[dancingalone]

Sounds awesome. Why did it change?

This is only my opinion.

1) Safety
2) There was a desire for TKD sparring needed to separate itself from generic karate and become its own sport. And it has - the ruleset causes players to fight in a certain way. You still need to be an elite athlete to compete, but you do need to train a certain way to be successful in TKD Olympic rules.

 

[skribs]

I think there are two elements, which have largely been touched on.

1. Safety
2. Identity

My Dad's old boss was an old-school student who trained in Korea on hard floors. He was deriding our school for using mats. My Dad had to remind him that he's had quite a few joints in his legs replaced, and maybe training on those hard floors was a reason why. That's also why I think there's less contact in training - safety. It doesn't help to learn self-defense if you're bruised and battered.

The second is identity. Identity away from Karate and towards a sport. This identity has led to the creation of the Taegeuk forms (which are designed to not look as much like the Shotokan Karate forms), which have shallower stances and aren't as hard on your legs as the older style of forms. This identity has led to the evolution of the kicking game, which has taken head punches out of the equation. Some people are just in it for the art or the sport, and not for the fighting. That "waters it down", so to speak.

 

[dvcochran]

I have watched a lot of Taekwondo sparring on YouTube, and every time I scroll down the comment section I see comments such as - "Ooh old school Taekwondo was better". I tried to look into this and I found this video:

From what I saw, and what the narrator was saying, there was something different but I can't quite place it. From what I see:

• They kept their hands higher up in their guard. Now personally I keep my right hand raised to my chin, and my left down low and relaxed as it feels it helps me to have faster and more fluid movement.
• They people in the video seem to be considerably more aggressive than their "modern" competitive counterparts. You can hear constant "kiai", though I don't know the terms for it in Korean.
• The narrator mentioned how the practitioners "flicked their hips forward more". From what I understood, this made their kicks have a larger range as their body would have more momentum, and this also resulted in more power.

But I can't tell if I am missing anything? I feel as if there's another obvious difference that I am not quite getting. Can you guys spot anything?

There are a couple of things to point out in the video. The chest protectors that are mostly white are training hogus; thick and softly padded used during practice to reduce foot injury. And I would be curious to know the weight of the bag they were kicking on. You can also see there is little to no blocking because that is sparring training, working on technique (tendancy, counter, etc...) and accuracy, not necessarily full power kicks.
The title and commentary is about the differences in JMA kicks and KMA kicks, and he does a good job talking about the hip motion. I would say that is a definite change in how WT TKD kicks are thrown today vs. the older days. To be very sure todays kicks are powerful. For me a primary difference is in the evolution of the complex kicks and the power that can be made. Good for those who can do such kicks, but it narrows the collective and further separates practical TKD from sport TKD. In other words it can make it harder for the more casual or average KKW TKD practitioner to keep up with the curriculum. This is why most schools have separate classes/programs for those who want to seriously compete.

So to add to your query I would have to ask how far back do you want to go? Today's WT sparring has a lot of differences from sparring when I competed in the 80's-90's. Everything from judging, to rings, to scoring type and area are different. The commonly held rule back then was you must have one of the three: visible shudder, knock down, or knockout. WT competition has gone very far away from this in scoring.
The noticeable caveats in today's sparring:
If you knock someone down with a scoring area kick And you fall it can still count as a score. You used to have to show total control throughout the confrontation.
Especially with an electronic hogu much lighter contacts hits count, still must be more than a touch though.
Knockouts can still count but 'head hunting' the way we used to is not allowed. The real craftsmen have become masters at complex spinning kicks (3-4 spins in succession), and damn are they fast. And they will change direction
mid-succession (not my word a WT thing).

If you go back to the 50's & 60's TKD was a Korean military training tool. From what I can gather almost all TKD punched to the face and had sweeps. This is thought to be part of the rub between early TKD and styles like Karate, Shotokan, etc., and let to many of the modifications you see today in some modern TKD styles. I know that at least two of the early Kwans butted heads with some Kung Fu factions (not mantis) over fundamental use of hands/arms and stance/stance work.

So excluding the stylistic competitiveness going between the various Kwan's and even other styles on early, TKD had kicks at every height range but they were much, much more practical for the average practitioner (including American military). Of course padding was non existent which I think is a big factor that gets swept under the rug sometimes.

The modern WT fighting style is 100% a closed circuit animal of it's own that is pretty deeply integrated into to the political requirements mandated at the WT/KKW and USA TKD levels. Way more bureaucratic than it should be but it is what it is. That seems to be standard fare in the Korean political systems, very engrained in their culture.

FWIW, recently someone made a post here on the forum about the name MMA and how it has evolved. You can make much the same comparison with modern WT/KKW TKD. As a sport, it has continued to refine and evolve. At it's inception it has been designed to be the counter-culture to boxing, using feet as much as boxing uses hands. Globally and politically it is a huge success. It has never made the leap to a professional sport and with the popularity of MMA I have a hard time seeing it every happen. Possibly in smaller sectors of the planet.

I have to stop for now but will continue to think on this and possibly add more to it.

 

[granfire]

well, TKD did not exist prior to the General (who used his influence on a national level to 'unite' the 4 or five existing styles under one banner)
Prior to that select few were able to train in Japanese arts (Korea was occupied!)

All that aside.

Now we know more
about injuries, better training practices, and by in large we have grown to avoid unnecessary risks.
When you have a day job you can't afford to get crippled playing. (we also have less of a social safety net, at least here in the US)

I am not commenting on Olympic TKD. Like a lot of sports it has grown a weird mutation of the art.
yeah, they are athletic, but I don't think very skilled.

But yeah, 'the good old days' holding Black Belt camps in the heat of summer, until the participants vomit. 'LOL, he got his bell rung' when practitioners are knocked out (now we know the accumulative effect of concussions.) Although it is funny when somebody goes down, still fighting, but the lights are effectively out. Not haha funny...(seen a girl go down at rank test sparring. At a medium contact organization, that was NOT planned! and the guy who hit her felt terrible!)

I have to say though, over the last 15 plus years the tone even in internet discussions has softened.
the hard core crowd either retired or had to switch to cane combat I guess.
because the good old days were only good in nostalgia.

 

[granfire]

PS: The 'kia' is the vocalization for 'ki-hap' Korean for yell.
And generally most people agree one ought to get whipped with their belt if one actually yells 'KIA'

Yeah, they yelled more, and I disagree with the modern trend to take the yells out:
To yell you have to breathe, to yell loudly, you have to breathe deeply.
Breathing is essential in self defense: You freeze and stop breathing, you can't fight back.

Also: there is the psychological effect of being yelled at.
Most people are not used to this and freeze when aggressively yelled at. Even seasoned martial arts practitioners!
There is a reason you spend so much time in bootcamp being screamed at by the drill instructors.

 

[Ivan]

PS: The 'kia' is the vocalization for 'ki-hap' Korean for yell.
And generally most people agree one ought to get whipped with their belt if one actually yells 'KIA'

Yeah, they yelled more, and I disagree with the modern trend to take the yells out:
To yell you have to breathe, to yell loudly, you have to breathe deeply.
Breathing is essential in self defense: You freeze and stop breathing, you can't fight back.

Also: there is the psychological effect of being yelled at.
Most people are not used to this and freeze when aggressively yelled at. Even seasoned martial arts practitioners!
There is a reason you spend so much time in bootcamp being screamed at by the drill instructors.

Where could you find old school practitioners nowadays? It seems like the true version of the martial art is dead, based on what you're saying.

 

[granfire]

Where could you find old school practitioners nowadays? It seems like the true version of the martial art is dead, based on what you're saying.

things evolve and change. it's the way of life.
I come originally from the horse world. and as I age I realize that the old time horse people are dying out. It's nothing you can change, it's how life works.
One has to be mindful though. Study past masters, and put them in their contemporary context.
The generation of my grandfather had to work physically hard, he expected his horses to do so as well, they were work animals.
Very much loved, but for making a living.
My dad lived through the lean years after the war, and got to see the rise of riding for pleasure. The horses no longer served to earn their keep.
Now horses have become a commodity. They are again a means to make a living, but in a different way, and in many ways it is not a change for the better.
We now understand nutrition and training better, bio mechanics, etc.
but too many people no longer get to spend time with the animals on a daily basis.

Translate this into martial arts.
the guys who learned from the school of hard knocks are passing on. The same ones who fought wars, drilled on parade grounds.
On the other hand, we are raising new generations of people who depended on their skill and wits for survival. Their numbers are small though compared to the weekend warriors who play martial arts on a daily basis.
we - generically speaking - don't know a lot of things past generations did intuitively.
Our world has changed and so has our approach to things.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

PS: The 'kia' is the vocalization for 'ki-hap' Korean for yell.
And generally most people agree one ought to get whipped with their belt if one actually yells 'KIA'

Yeah, they yelled more, and I disagree with the modern trend to take the yells out:
To yell you have to breathe, to yell loudly, you have to breathe deeply.
Breathing is essential in self defense: You freeze and stop breathing, you can't fight back.

Also: there is the psychological effect of being yelled at.
Most people are not used to this and freeze when aggressively yelled at. Even seasoned martial arts practitioners!
There is a reason you spend so much time in bootcamp being screamed at by the drill instructors.

I and my friends used to compete to see who could kiai louder on different techniques as kids. Or in sparring. Annoyed the hell out of our instructors, but if we were asked to stop we just wouldn't kiai at all so they accepted it. We were brats.

 

[andyjeffries]

well, TKD did not exist prior to the General (who used his influence on a national level to 'unite' the 4 or five existing styles under one banner)

Really?! I can't believe anyone's actually saying that.

The name Taekwondo didn't exist prior to General Choi naming it, but it was united by the Kwan leaders, not Choi. In fact, at the time, Choi only had "honorary 4th dan rank" not full regular dan rank, and that was (controversially) revoked by GM Son, Duk-sung in the Seoul newspaper on June 15th 1959 after Choi asked for higher honorary dan rank, so whether he was a legit master is even really in question.

Choi did a lot for popularising and promoting Taekwondo, and for that I'm grateful, but let's not take credit from a bunch of honourable grandmasters who unified Taekwondo and give it to one guy, who in reality is the cause of the major split in Taekwondo. 9 Kwans (we'll ignore the 10th administration only Kwan) came together to unify to form Taekwondo, KTA, and then Kukkiwon. General Choi was the only one to split away - even his original Kwan Ohdokwan still exists in Korea and fully supports Kukkiwon.

 

[andyjeffries]

Where could you find old school practitioners nowadays? It seems like the true version of the martial art is dead, based on what you're saying.

The "true version" of Taekwondo is the current Kukkiwon style. Taekwondo was formed by the unification of the Kwans (original 5, 9 or 10, depending on how you want to count them), and all those Kwans still support Kukkiwon. Taekwondo has changed and been redefined over the years, but that is what Taekwondo is! It's not how it was first done in the 50s, or 60s. Hell if you compare those versions to that in the 70s and 80s it was different. Taekwondo has always been evolving and improving, so if you want the "traditional" Taekwondo, keep up with the changes because that's what the "tradition" of Taekwondo truly is.

 

[dvcochran]

Really?! I can't believe anyone's actually saying that.

The name Taekwondo didn't exist prior to General Choi naming it, but it was united by the Kwan leaders, not Choi. In fact, at the time, Choi only had "honorary 4th dan rank" not full regular dan rank, and that was (controversially) revoked by GM Son, Duk-sung in the Seoul newspaper on June 15th 1959 after Choi asked for higher honorary dan rank, so whether he was a legit master is even really in question.

Choi did a lot for popularising and promoting Taekwondo, and for that I'm grateful, but let's not take credit from a bunch of honourable grandmasters who unified Taekwondo and give it to one guy, who in reality is the cause of the major split in Taekwondo. 9 Kwans (we'll ignore the 10th administration only Kwan) came together to unify to form Taekwondo, KTA, and then Kukkiwon. General Choi was the only one to split away - even his original Kwan Ohdokwan still exists in Korea and fully supports Kukkiwon.

I agree with most of what you say. However, it is certainly not fair to rate a 4th (or even 3rd) rank back then to today's "rapid advancement" 4th Dan's. Dynamically opposed. So I could never look down on any of the historical figures based on their 'rank' of the time. Just a different animal back then.
Yes, I agree that Choi basically 'took his toys and went home' but if he had not done So much for TKD why would we still hear so much about him? Love him or hate him he is One of the founding father of modern TKD.

 

[dvcochran]

The "true version" of Taekwondo is the current Kukkiwon style. Taekwondo was formed by the unification of the Kwans (original 5, 9 or 10, depending on how you want to count them), and all those Kwans still support Kukkiwon. Taekwondo has changed and been redefined over the years, but that is what Taekwondo is! It's not how it was first done in the 50s, or 60s. Hell if you compare those versions to that in the 70s and 80s it was different. Taekwondo has always been evolving and improving, so if you want the "traditional" Taekwondo, keep up with the changes because that's what the "tradition" of Taekwondo truly is.

No, that is not true at all but it is what we have today by in large. Not completely but in the majority.
Not at all what Ivan was asking for in the OP I believe, but that is true. TKD is a living entity that is always changing. Sometimes there is more bad than good with that but it is consistently true.
That was a party line answer that I am guessing is from a base that has little to no experience in pre or early KKW martial arts. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[granfire]

Really?! I can't believe anyone's actually saying that.

The name Taekwondo didn't exist prior to General Choi naming it, but it was united by the Kwan leaders, not Choi. In fact, at the time, Choi only had "honorary 4th dan rank" not full regular dan rank, and that was (controversially) revoked by GM Son, Duk-sung in the Seoul newspaper on June 15th 1959 after Choi asked for higher honorary dan rank, so whether he was a legit master is even really in question.

Choi did a lot for popularising and promoting Taekwondo, and for that I'm grateful, but let's not take credit from a bunch of honourable grandmasters who unified Taekwondo and give it to one guy, who in reality is the cause of the major split in Taekwondo. 9 Kwans (we'll ignore the 10th administration only Kwan) came together to unify to form Taekwondo, KTA, and then Kukkiwon. General Choi was the only one to split away - even his original Kwan Ohdokwan still exists in Korea and fully supports Kukkiwon.

yeah, hard to believe.
(I actually read several histories)
Korea as such didn't exist (in modern times) until after WWII.
Prior to that Japan had the country under iron control, effectively from 1905, officially from 1910 on.
(25 years is a long time to break traditions)

So all the stories about how old the art is is nationalism born from oppression.
Cool beans, but still not an unbroken lineage. There is a reason why early Taekwondo looks so much like karate.
the earliest Kwan leaders were lucky to be able to train in Japan.
Choi had the biggest ego in a room full of egos, and the national muscle to force his vision on the other practitioners. Having every young man in the country do 'his' style in the Army goes a very long way in unifying the curriculum.

 

[drop bear]

Where could you find old school practitioners nowadays? It seems like the true version of the martial art is dead, based on what you're saying.

In kickboxing mostly.

Kelly sief is a good example of old school TKD that has made the transition.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Where could you find old school practitioners nowadays? It seems like the true version of the martial art is dead, based on what you're saying.

I trained old school TKD with one of General Choy's students way back in the late 1970s. While I was there the Olympics was looming and he split the class in to "traditional" and "Olympic" because he had students that wanted olympic. I tried both sides, but stuck with "traditional" We had the high kicks, but also low kicks, strikes, in close fighting and takedowns. Last I knew my teacher, Mr Kim, was still teaching, but I have no idea what classes at his schools are like now. When I went he had only 2 schools. And one of those closed, the one I was at, and I went to his main school for awhile.