What are some fighting methods that you simply cannot ethically pressure test in the ring, which can only be proven "doing it live"?

[GreenieMeanie]

Stuff like trach chokes and sap work. The only way to learn is through experience, or from someone that did it, or someone they trained.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think many small joint locks fall into this category. I’ve seen them result in breaks when people decided to resist in the middle of drills, so would never really try to put them on in a competitive situation. I’m just not willing to break something on an opponent.

 

[mograph]

Well, we're pretty fragile, so it might not so much be the technique, as to where it is applied. Like many types of strikes, but to the throat.

Our teacher showed us a way that might break someone's back by stepping in, bringing one hand in at their waist, and pressing the other into their jaw to bend them back. He did it halfway to his assistant, but I have no desire to try it. It was just a demo to show us what can be done without a lot of movement.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Stuff like trach chokes and sap work. The only way to learn is through experience, or from someone that did it, or someone they trained.

Air chokes are trained and used all the time.

If by "sap work" you mean the little lead filled thumper things, then there's no reason not to train those live either. They aren't nearly as dangerous as some of the other weapons people train with. And you can always fill it with something softer to avoid injury.

Small joint manipulation and strikes to particular areas (such as the throat) can be trained live, but obviously they carry a greater risk of unintentional injury.

Well, we're pretty fragile, so it might not so much be the technique, as to where it is applied. Like many types of strikes, but to the throat.

Very true.

Our teacher showed us a way that might break someone's back by stepping in, bringing one hand in at their waist, and pressing the other into their jaw to bend them back. He did it halfway to his assistant, but I have no desire to try it. It was just a demo to show us what can be done without a lot of movement.

I don't think I'd hold my breath waiting for that to break someones back. It's an excellent way to unbalance someone though, especially if you need or want to control their fall. It's one of my go-to techniques for combative patients, precisely because it allows me to control their fall.

 

[GreenieMeanie]

Air chokes are trained and used all the time.

If by "sap work" you mean the little lead filled thumper things, then there's no reason not to train those live either. They aren't nearly as dangerous as some of the other weapons people train with. And you can always fill it with something softer to avoid injury.

Small joint manipulation and strikes to particular areas (such as the throat) can be trained live, but obviously they carry a greater risk of unintentional injury.

Very true.

I don't think I'd hold my breath waiting for that to break someones back. It's an excellent way to unbalance someone though, especially if you need or want to control their fall. It's one of my go-to techniques for combative patients, precisely because it allows me to control their fall.

Trach choke, not an air choke, as in you grasp the trachea like an object that almost fell. There is some technique to it though.

I'm not talking about training the action. I'm talking about testing things full-force in the ring. You wouldn't want to test a sap on someone full force.

 

[Flying Crane]

There are all kinds of things that you cannot train full-force in the ring. As was pointed out earlier, people are actually pretty fragile and if something as simple as a punch lands at the right spot with the right timing, it can be devastating and with lethal or otherwise permanent injury resulting. So in many instances, simple concepts like full-power punches can be off-limits, depending on the target and other issues. There are certain specialized punches that are idealized against certain targets, that can be very dangerous. You simply cannot do that to another person in a competition setting, if you have any kind of conscience.

 

[Buka]

I've found that the number one thing that can't be trained in the ring or dojo, at least realistically, is talking yourself out of trouble. That's a verbal skill honed in the field.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I've found that the number one thing that can't be trained in the ring or dojo, at least realistically, is talking yourself out of trouble.

This is second in importance to not talking yourself into trouble. This is a more difficult skill to develop. Just ask any married man.

 

[hoshin1600]

Buka kinda stole my thunder. I was going to say running away.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

This is second in importance to not talking yourself into trouble. This is a more difficult skill to develop. Just ask any married man.

Lol! 🤣🤙

 

[Dirty Dog]

Trach choke, not an air choke, as in you grasp the trachea like an object that almost fell. There is some technique to it though.

There's a lot of silliness to it as well. Despite what was shown in Roadhouse it's just all that effective, nor is it difficult to get you to release it.

I'm not talking about training the action. I'm talking about testing things full-force in the ring. You wouldn't want to test a sap on someone full force.

Why would I need to? ERs all over the world are filled with people who have been hit full-force by all kinds of things. That provides more than enough data for any test you care to think of. Blunt force trauma is blunt force trauma, and it's really no challenge at all to find people who have been hit with something that is pretty much the same as a sap. Like, say, a rock in a sock. Or a Pepsi in a pillowcase (brand name used only for alliteration, it could be any brand, please don't sue me PepsiCo).

 

[drop bear]

Trach choke, not an air choke, as in you grasp the trachea like an object that almost fell. There is some technique to it though.

I'm not talking about training the action. I'm talking about testing things full-force in the ring. You wouldn't want to test a sap on someone full force.

I have done the craw full force on people.

It can be quite injurious.

I used to hit people with a roll of 10 cents bits as well. Which is kind of sap like.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Our teacher showed us a way that might break someone's back by stepping in, bringing one hand in at their waist, and pressing the other into their jaw to bend them back. He did it halfway to his assistant, but I have no desire to try it. It was just a demo to show us what can be done without a lot of movement.

Unless I'm not understanding what you're describing here, I've done this on people both in the dojo and outside when I was a teen. Granted I'm not the strongest, which is why I needed to have both hands positioned, but I never once broke a back with it. Throw them off-balance, yes, leading to a sweep. Even once threw a guy with just that. But never anywhere close to breaking a back.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I've found that the number one thing that can't be trained in the ring or dojo, at least realistically, is talking yourself out of trouble. That's a verbal skill honed in the field.

I disagree. In my counseling degree (in the classroom, not the bogus SD course actual jobs made us take), a large part of it was learning how to de-escalate, and general verbal skills. Involved a lot of learning, a lot of social science, and then a lot of role-playing. And it surprised me when I got in the field how effective it was, and how little experience I actually needed to make it work.

I think the issue is just that most dojo instructors (and a lot of instructors in LE-related fields) don't understand/never learned the science of it, and as a result don't actually know how to teach it. While they might be able to do it from experience, that'd be the same as a 'street-fighter' trying to teach fighting without ever having actual training, just going by experience. They can try, but there are gaps there.

 

[drop bear]

Unless I'm not understanding what you're describing here, I've done this on people both in the dojo and outside when I was a teen. Granted I'm not the strongest, which is why I needed to have both hands positioned, but I never once broke a back with it. Throw them off-balance, yes, leading to a sweep. Even once threw a guy with just that. But never anywhere close to breaking a back.

Regardless how a back break can be done.

There is only one way it should be done

 

[GreenieMeanie]

I have done the craw full force on people.

It can be quite injurious.

I used to hit people with a roll of 10 cents bits as well. Which is kind of sap like.

The craw?

 

[GreenieMeanie]

There's a lot of silliness to it as well. Despite what was shown in Roadhouse it's just all that effective, nor is it difficult to get you to release it.

Why would I need to? ERs all over the world are filled with people who have been hit full-force by all kinds of things. That provides more than enough data for any test you care to think of. Blunt force trauma is blunt force trauma, and it's really no challenge at all to find people who have been hit with something that is pretty much the same as a sap. Like, say, a rock in a sock. Or a Pepsi in a pillowcase (brand name used only for alliteration, it could be any brand, please don't sue me PepsiCo).

Trach choke certainly isnt a finisher.

Thats actually a very good point--but I'm finding there's a lot of material I've never been exposed to, but maybe that's because I'm learning systems refined, that have lost their old-school roots.

 

[mograph]

Unless I'm not understanding what you're describing here, I've done this on people both in the dojo and outside when I was a teen. Granted I'm not the strongest, which is why I needed to have both hands positioned, but I never once broke a back with it. Throw them off-balance, yes, leading to a sweep. Even once threw a guy with just that. But never anywhere close to breaking a back.

He really was on his way to bending the guy. It depends on how close together the hands are. I'll ask the next time I see him.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Trach choke certainly isnt a finisher.

It's not much of a starter, either.

 

[Buka]

I disagree. In my counseling degree (in the classroom, not the bogus SD course actual jobs made us take), a large part of it was learning how to de-escalate, and general verbal skills. Involved a lot of learning, a lot of social science, and then a lot of role-playing. And it surprised me when I got in the field how effective it was, and how little experience I actually needed to make it work.

I think the issue is just that most dojo instructors (and a lot of instructors in LE-related fields) don't understand/never learned the science of it, and as a result don't actually know how to teach it. While they might be able to do it from experience, that'd be the same as a 'street-fighter' trying to teach fighting without ever having actual training, just going by experience. They can try, but there are gaps there.

It sounds like we're in agreement. I've taken and taught those courses for as long as I can remember.
But until you actually try in the field for the first few times, you can't be sure how well it's going to work.

No matter how you try to create the same atmosphere in the dojo, the stress level, surroundings and individual craziness of the other party, only exist in the field.

I'm just glad they work most times.