We've forgotten how to fight back

[jdinca]

That's disgusting, I do agree with fighting back and we should teach out kids not to be targets and to not take pacifism to an extreme but this is not even fighting back, it's traumatising kids!

If they were going to have a drill, ALL the people in the building should have been warned, including the kids and the parents of the kids so they could choose not to have thier kids involved. Doing something like that to a group of children could have just as bad long term affects as the real thing, it's not training for it because the kids won't remember the things they were told, they'll just remember how scared they were. To properly train for something like this you have to remove the danger or any threat and train in an environment which is good for positive reinforcement learning, and a threatening environment like that isn't.

Intelligence and common sense are two different things. Obviously, these teachers are not aware what that latter is. I hope disciplinary action follows, as well as the school district picking up the cost for whatever counseling those kids may have to go through. What a stupid thing to do.

 

[MA-Caver]

Intelligence and common sense are two different things. Obviously, these teachers are not aware what that latter is. I hope disciplinary action follows, as well as the school district picking up the cost for whatever counseling those kids may have to go through. What a stupid thing to do.

Agreed! While I can semi-comprehend the mind set that having an un-announced drill conducted to convey the sense of realism for children of the elementary school age this is uncalled for and a traumatizing event. If it were high-school students or college then yeah they are a bit more emotionally equipt to handle the stress. They have the capacity to have a moments doubt that says to themselves "hey, wait a second... mebbe this is some kind of drill..." At least it reduces the fear factor. The same thoughts probably went through some of the minds of the VA tech students but the reality of the dead and dying and wounded removed such doubts. But everyone should be notified that a drill is being conducted regardless.
I wouldn't think it'd be funny that a student not knowing better has a warrior (or wcs a reckless attitude) and attacks the would be attackers and then gets in trouble for it.

Grade School Teachers should have the mind-set of being willing to fight to the death for the lives of their charges... especially elementary school aged children, if escape isn't possible. Barricading the door to their room or getting the kids out the window (if single story) asap and telling them to run to the parking lot or to where-ever a pre-determined spot may be.
If the gunman enters the teacher should be prepared to start throwing books, desks, chairs whatever they can at the gunman to buy time. Little ones cowering under their desks is about as brilliant an idea as the old "duck and cover" scenario of a nuclear attack in the 60's.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

If we are going to compare a knucklehead student resisting the lawful orders of law enforcement to students fighting a mass murderer, then we have nothing to talk about here because your out there in the twilight zone.

 

[michaeledward]

If we are going to compare a knucklehead student resisting the lawful orders of law enforcement to students fighting a mass murderer, then we have nothing to talk about here because your out there in the twilight zone.

Edit - Never mind - Add to Ignore list - End Edit

 

[jdinca]

I wouldn't think it'd be funny that a student not knowing better has a warrior (or wcs a reckless attitude) and attacks the would be attackers and then gets in trouble for it.

I've got this visual of a 6th grader just beating the holy crap out of one the "attackers". It brings a smile to my face. If he got in trouble, i.e. suspended, we'd take that time and go to Disneyland.

 

[Phoenix44]

Have we forgotten how to fight back, or does something odd happen to people in these situations?

In 1993, a guy walked through a train car on the Long Island Railroad randomly shooting people. It was an evening rush hour train, with probably over a hundred people on it. He'd shot more than 20 people and killed 6 before some guys took him down while he re-loaded.

We're all looking at this through the eyes of martial artists, but how many years did we all have to train to instantly and reflexively fight back?

 

[Xue Sheng]

We're all looking at this through the eyes of martial artists, but how many years did we all have to train to instantly and reflexively fight back?

I agree with you and the guy that use to be my Wing Chun Sifu and I had a similar discussion back in 2001.

But there are occasions when we (the collective we) fought back - We should not forget flight 93

 

[michaeledward]

Flight 93 is, perhaps, not a good example ...

Passengers on that plane were aware that other hi-jacked planes had flown into buildings. They had a greater awareness of consequences than can usually be assumed.

Passengers on that plane had some time to organize a resistance. I don't know the time line for individuals at Virginia tech, but we do know that the 33 passengers and the flight crew had approximately 30 minutes to communicate with the outside world and plan their response.

Now, if you could use American Flight 11, as an example . . .


I tell my children, that making the right choice on the small issues in very important, because when it comes time to make a choice on a big issue, they will have had lots of practice making that right choice. To a certain extent, I think this mirrors Phoenix44's suggestion of our training allows us to see this differently.

And, I don't think we should neglect 3 or 4 million years of 'fight or flight' in our genetic code.

 

[MA-Caver]

Have we forgotten how to fight back, or does something odd happen to people in these situations?

In 1993, a guy walked through a train car on the Long Island Railroad randomly shooting people. It was an evening rush hour train, with probably over a hundred people on it. He'd shot more than 20 people and killed 6 before some guys took him down while he re-loaded.

We're all looking at this through the eyes of martial artists, but how many years did we all have to train to instantly and reflexively fight back?

I think it's a little of that in everyone. The shock of sudden and fatalistic violence puts pause in a majority of people... majority being those who are not exposed to it on a day to day basis... LEO's and active duty military personnel serving (or having recently served) in a combat zone.
However in some cases (as in the '93 episode) people got over the shock value and manage to move in and stop the attacker before he killed/wounded any others. But then again waiting until the killer stops to reload isn't a bad idea either ... just got to hope you weren't in his sights during the first round.

We ARE all looking at this discussion through the eyes of MA-ists, it's our common ground here. But as far as to how many years we had to train to get the instincts/reflexes to fight back... that answer is gonna be as varied as the types of MA listed on this board.
Each of us here have taken a MA because we've felt the warrior spirit within and answered it's call. We can apply whatever face to it, SD reasons, Fitness reasons, The Desire To Kick Butt reasons...whatever! But we are a select few.

I agree with you and the guy that use to be my Wing Chun Sifu and I had a similar discussion back in 2001.
But there are occasions when we (the collective we) fought back - We should not forget flight 93

Flight 93 is, perhaps, not a good example ...

Passengers on that plane were aware that other hi-jacked planes had flown into buildings. They had a greater awareness of consequences than can usually be assumed.

Passengers on that plane had some time to organize a resistance. I don't know the time line for individuals at Virginia tech, but we do know that the 33 passengers and the flight crew had approximately 30 minutes to communicate with the outside world and plan their response.

Now, if you could use American Flight 11, as an example . . .

Actually Michael, Xue is right using Flight 93 as an example... just as you are correct using Flight 11... both have shown the results of action vs inaction. But... we don't know what totally happened on Flight 11 do we? We know what happened on 93 because people using cell phones were "reporting it" as it happened... and largely it's all hypothesized, they said they were going to rush the hijackers and as a result the plane crashed in a field out in PA instead of it's intended target ... or did the plane crash for other reasons?
We can hypothesize that the passengers of Flight 11 were all sheep and just sat dumbly there until the plane crashed into the first of two towers. But how many did the hijackers kill on board in order to maintain control of the plane long enough to do that? If I understand it there were more hijackers on that flight and fewer passengers as compared to the reverse of flight 93...
Regardless... that one group of people took action to fight for their lives and another did not is part of the focus of this discussion... that some will and some won't. The VT tragedy and 9/11 are good examples of what we're talking about here. Same with the Amish tragedy and Columbine could be used as well.
It boils down to fear, shock, mental preparedness (think of that 11 yr. old girl who thwarted her would be kidnapper a few days-threads ago). The old Soviet Military's elite force had "shock-troops" to instantly immobilize any potential resistance before it got started. Because they KNEW that there are "sheep-dogs" among the sheep and that it's nearly impossible to tell them apart until they act.

The why's of it all, who will fight and who will cower in fear and possibly die, again will vary upon the individual. How they were raised, their personal values, the value they place on their lives compared to the lives of others, their individual ability to control their fears and so many other factors.
It's what I've said before though... no-one person knows exactly what they're capable of doing at any given moment at any given time until they do it.

 

[Ping898]

Have we forgotten how to fight back, or does something odd happen to people in these situations?

In 1993, a guy walked through a train car on the Long Island Railroad randomly shooting people. It was an evening rush hour train, with probably over a hundred people on it. He'd shot more than 20 people and killed 6 before some guys took him down while he re-loaded.

We're all looking at this through the eyes of martial artists, but how many years did we all have to train to instantly and reflexively fight back?

I think you also have to consider the timing of some of these things too, if you look at a group of people like on that train that would not have a reflexive response, it is evening, I don't know about anyone else, but by the time I leave work I am usually mentally and physically drained and my response time is considerably slowed until I get home and have a half hour or so to decrompress and can focus again...it is not like these attacks happen at 10 am after everyone has had a cup of coffee and is at their peak to be able to mentally and physically combat the situation....

 

[WCman1976]

I also wonder what is teaches kids these days when a fight occurs and someone defends themself, they are also punished along with the instigator....

I don't normally play the "one up" game, but I got you beat on this one: in my school, someone came up and started a fight with one of my friends. He didn't bother fighting back because he figured if he didn't swing, then he wouldn't get suspended. WRONG! So he said to me afterward, "Great...now I am out of school and going to catch hell from my parents. I should have pummeled the bastard!" And I agree.

In the area where I grew up, there really was an anti-martial art sentiment in the air. People would ask me what my hobbies were...I would say "martial arts" or "self-defense" and they would get turned off from even talking to me. The rumor I heard going around school about me was that I was "scary" because I was into that "violent kung fu stuff." Never mind the fact that, for years before that, most people in school ALSO knew I was a bully magnet! So it's okay if the bullies are the violent ones...but if the person who GETS bullied decides to learn how to defend themselves, they are creepy? Never made any sense to me.

 

[oftheherd1]

I don't normally play the "one up" game, but I got you beat on this one: in my school, someone came up and started a fight with one of my friends. He didn't bother fighting back because he figured if he didn't swing, then he wouldn't get suspended. WRONG! So he said to me afterward, "Great...now I am out of school and going to catch hell from my parents. I should have pummeled the bastard!" And I agree.

In the area where I grew up, there really was an anti-martial art sentiment in the air. People would ask me what my hobbies were...I would say "martial arts" or "self-defense" and they would get turned off from even talking to me. The rumor I heard going around school about me was that I was "scary" because I was into that "violent kung fu stuff." Never mind the fact that, for years before that, most people in school ALSO knew I was a bully magnet! So it's okay if the bullies are the violent ones...but if the person who GETS bullied decides to learn how to defend themselves, they are creepy? Never made any sense to me.

It's called Zero Tolerance. It's a wonderful concept and application. You don't have to try and figure out who is the agressor, and risk a lawsult from parents when you send that kid home. You just send them both home based on your Zero Tolerance policy.

This thread started commenting on the Virginia Tech shootings. Based on placement of the bodies, a bandsman in the Tech Corps of Cadets was thought to have tried to get to the gunman, Song. He was buried in a local cemetary, with full military honors. The entire Corps of Cadets escorted his body on foot to the cemetary.

As to the thrust of the thread, I think it is to most of us, a shame people aren't taught to, and allowed to, defend themselves. But perhaps we are biased?

 

[WC_lun]

I think this issue is a two sided coin. Yes, kids in school are taught that violence, for any reason, is unacceptable. Not a good thing when it comes to knowing when to step up for yourself. However, modern media teaches kids that violence is an acceptable answer for most situations. Also not good for obvious reasons. There needs to be a middle ground and that is where parents and family come in. Parents and close family MUST be the voice of reason and teach that sometimes violence is neccesary, but only in limited situations. If this does not happen, kids go one way or another depending upon which extreme they already identify with.

As far as the Virgina Tech thing, I think it unfair to critisize anyone in that situation for not defending themselves. There are many variables in a situation like that. Fear, confusion, adrenaline surge, the fact they were unarmed against a gunmen, etc. Saying you would have done this or that is not thinking in terms of reality, unless you have been in a very similiar situation and know how you have already acted. The thing is, NO ONE knows how they will react to life threatening situations, especially involving violence, until it happens. So to critisize others for not taking action is not really fair.

 

[oftheherd1]

I think this issue is a two sided coin. Yes, kids in school are taught that violence, for any reason, is unacceptable. Not a good thing when it comes to knowing when to step up for yourself. However, modern media teaches kids that violence is an acceptable answer for most situations. Also not good for obvious reasons. There needs to be a middle ground and that is where parents and family come in. Parents and close family MUST be the voice of reason and teach that sometimes violence is neccesary, but only in limited situations. If this does not happen, kids go one way or another depending upon which extreme they already identify with.

As far as the Virgina Tech thing, I think it unfair to critisize anyone in that situation for not defending themselves. There are many variables in a situation like that. Fear, confusion, adrenaline surge, the fact they were unarmed against a gunmen, etc. Saying you would have done this or that is not thinking in terms of reality, unless you have been in a very similiar situation and know how you have already acted. The thing is, NO ONE knows how they will react to life threatening situations, especially involving violence, until it happens. So to critisize others for not taking action is not really fair.

All true. The problem seems to be too many of today's parents didn't get that same guidance when they were young. And I also agree one doesn't know what one will do until in a situation. Even if we have been in a similar situation, we may react differently for many different reasons.