Creationist Kids - their faith vs science

Makalakumu

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In my other life, I'm a science teacher at the local high school. I teach biology, physics, and earth science. For this year, I ended up teaching one class at the local middle school...basic earth science.

At this particular school, the demographics are completely different from where I normally teach. All of these children are from well-off families and most of them have parents are really involved and care. Also, many of the families are very religious and conservative.

As the year has gone on, I've grown to really appreciate these kids. They are smart, they work hard, and you can really tell that they are being brought up right. Now, I'm smart enough to realize that their faith is part of this equation and I don't want to do anything to jeopardize that.

Here's the problem...

I have at least a half dozen kids who are outright creationists. They believe that the earth is 6,000 years old, that evolution is not true, and that specially created by god exactly like it says in genesis. And I have a half dozen more who lean this way.

I was initially surprised by this. At my other school, we don't have any evangelical churches nearby and I've only had a couple of students with these beliefs. They were polite, they sat in class, listened to what I had to say, and moved on.

In this class, however, my creationist students have banded together to present a united front against the challenge to their beliefs. They say things like, "There's no such thing as millions of years" or "There's no such thing as Evolution" or "Adam and Eve lived with the dinosaurs" or "There really was a world wide flood and Noah's Ark was real."

When I ask them to provide evidence for these claims, they either give really flimsy anecdotes or no evidence at all, saying that it is just a matter of faith.

Every student in class listened when I went over these topics this year. I presented the evidence matter of factly, as "this is what people have observed" and "this is how these people arrived at this conclusion."

My students are poised to debate. It could be a good learning experience for all involved, but there will be clear losers. The other kids in the class have listened to the information that I've presented and all they need to do is parrot that stuff off and my Creationist students will have nothing to counter with. Sure, a one sided debate is instructive, but this really is a sensitive issue.

This problem gets worse. I have to give these students grades. The criteria that I set for grading is the same for every student...I want to know how well they understand the concepts that I'm teaching. Their Creationist beliefs are clearly standing in the way of them understanding some of these concepts.

For example, if I ask "How do scientists arrive at the conclusion that the Earth is 4.6 billion years old?" And I get an answer like, "The Earth isn't that old, I believe in the Bible and the Bible says that the Earth is only 6,000 years old" I cannot accept that answer. There is no credible scientific evidence for this claim.

The bottom line is that they aren't learning the science that I have to teach and their beliefs are the reason. I feel that if I'm going to continue with this unit and try to teach these kids, I'm going to have to addess these Creationist claims. These kids are only 12 and 13. They are very impressionable and what happens in the next couple of weeks could stick with them for the rest of their lives.

I'm not sure what to do? What do you think about all this?
 

Carol

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This problem gets worse. I have to give these students grades. The criteria that I set for grading is the same for every student...I want to know how well they understand the concepts that I'm teaching. Their Creationist beliefs are clearly standing in the way of them understanding some of these concepts.

For example, if I ask "How do scientists arrive at the conclusion that the Earth is 4.6 billion years old?" And I get an answer like, "The Earth isn't that old, I believe in the Bible and the Bible says that the Earth is only 6,000 years old" I cannot accept that answer. There is no credible scientific evidence for this claim.

The bottom line is that they aren't learning the science that I have to teach and their beliefs are the reason. I feel that if I'm going to continue with this unit and try to teach these kids, I'm going to have to addess these Creationist claims. These kids are only 12 and 13. They are very impressionable and what happens in the next couple of weeks could stick with them for the rest of their lives.

I'm not sure what to do? What do you think about all this?


Wow. Not at all like when I was growing up, and it was actually legal to teach creationism alongside evolutionism at the time.

John, it may be better if you keep a little tighter control over the classroom. If you have to, tell the creationist students that their beliefs don't have to change, but they do have to learn about this point of view and that is how they will be tested for this particular class. If you have to (as much as I cringe) compare the material to a book report, where what matters isn't what you believe, its how well you know what you read.

Good Luck. Sounds like you are doing a great job. :)
 

Kacey

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First, I would talk to the school administration and/or other teachers - you can't be the only teacher in the building who's had this problem, and they may have some ideas for you.

Second, I would do what one of my biology professors did in college when confronted with the same problem: he told us that we were welcome to believe whatever we liked, but that we would be graded on how our answers that matched the text and lecture. Given the age of the students, I would suggest writing a letter to send home to the parents of all of the students in the class (have it proofed and approved by an admininstrator before you send it home) saying something like:

"Dear parent/guardian;

I am your child's teacher for basic earth science. The classroom in which I teach is very diverse, and includes students with a wide range of belief systems. Please be aware that the curriculum which I teach, as required by the district, may be in conflict with some of those belief systems. Please also be aware that your child is responsible for demonstrating awareness and understanding of the material I am presenting, and will be graded on his/her demonstration of that awareness and understanding. In no way am I attempting to change you child's belief system; however, please be aware that your child may recieve a lower grade than his/her effort might otherwise merit if he/she does not demonstrate awareness and understanding of the material in the curriculum. Please note that demonstrating this awareness and understanding does not require that you or your child agree with the curriculum that is being taught - only that your child has attended to the information presented and is able to demonstrate that he/she has done so by performance on assignments, projects and tests."

Again - make sure you get adminstrator approval - and I also suggest using school letterhead once you have the approval. Good luck!
 

Brian R. VanCise

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It sounds like you have your hands full and I wish you lot's of luck.

However, the material you are testing them on is the material. They have to learn it and understand it in order to pass. Faith is great, blind faith though has caused lot's of problems in the past. (still does) I think you will do a great job by simply educating everyone and letting them learn the material. If a child came to you and said I believe the earth is flat because that is what my dad said. Would you not educate this child as well so that they understood? Do your best and I am sure that it will all work out. The best part I see here is that you care and want everyone to learn and also you do not want to hurt people's feeling's.
icon14.gif
 

mrhnau

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Try a class project. Have them do a debate. I had something similar in my high school. Have one side evolution/old earth the other side creation/young earth. See how they do.

fundamentally, you are dealing with a religious opinion. Banging books on their head won't help. In their eyes, you are simply trying to change their religion.
 

FearlessFreep

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For example, if I ask "How do scientists arrive at the conclusion that the Earth is 4.6 billion years old?" And I get an answer like, "The Earth isn't that old, I believe in the Bible and the Bible says that the Earth is only 6,000 years old" I cannot accept that answer. There is no credible scientific evidence for this claim.


They are giving a wrong answer; regardless of belief. You are asking the mechanism and the mechanism can be answered. A Creationist may believe the mechanism is wrong or the interpretation of the results is wrong, but can still give an honest answer on the mechanism used to arrive at those (disputed, in their eyes) results

Q: How do you know that bulding is 47 feet tall
A: I don't believe that building is 47 feet tall
or
A: A yardstick

(even if the person believes the building is only 20 feet tall, the second answer accurately answers the question, the first is a dodge based on an agenda





*Disclaimer, I'm a Christian who does not believe in a 6K yo earth
 
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Makalakumu

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Wow. Not at all like when I was growing up, and it was actually legal to teach creationism alongside evolutionism at the time.

No, it's not like when I grew up either. Now, it's much more common to see kids directly challenge authority.

John, it may be better if you keep a little tighter control over the classroom.

No body is being disrespectful or breaking any rules, they are just expressing their opinions in discussions or in assignments.

If you have to, tell the creationist students that their beliefs don't have to change, but they do have to learn about this point of view and that is how they will be tested for this particular class. If you have to (as much as I cringe) compare the material to a book report, where what matters isn't what you believe, its how well you know what you read.

In some ways, I've always felt that this approach is too artificial. A student comes away with the impression that evidence doesn't matter or doesn't have to be taken into account if it contradicts something you care about. Think about all of the people disregard this or that aspect of the world around them in order to cling to this or that tradition. Wouldn't you think that the approach above would encourage that type of thinking?
 
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Makalakumu

Makalakumu

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First, I would talk to the school administration and/or other teachers - you can't be the only teacher in the building who's had this problem, and they may have some ideas for you.

The other teachers either don't cover the material or they don't go into it in any depth. I happen to find this material very interesting and I have a strong background in paleontology...complete with a large collection of samples, so I went there.

My administrator really didn't have much to say other then that I had to set the criteria for my class and hold everyone to it.

Second, I would do what one of my biology professors did in college when confronted with the same problem: he told us that we were welcome to believe whatever we liked, but that we would be graded on how our answers that matched the text and lecture. Given the age of the students, I would suggest writing a letter to send home to the parents of all of the students in the class (have it proofed and approved by an admininstrator before you send it home) saying something like:

"Dear parent/guardian;

I am your child's teacher for basic earth science. The classroom in which I teach is very diverse, and includes students with a wide range of belief systems. Please be aware that the curriculum which I teach, as required by the district, may be in conflict with some of those belief systems. Please also be aware that your child is responsible for demonstrating awareness and understanding of the material I am presenting, and will be graded on his/her demonstration of that awareness and understanding. In no way am I attempting to change you child's belief system; however, please be aware that your child may recieve a lower grade than his/her effort might otherwise merit if he/she does not demonstrate awareness and understanding of the material in the curriculum. Please note that demonstrating this awareness and understanding does not require that you or your child agree with the curriculum that is being taught - only that your child has attended to the information presented and is able to demonstrate that he/she has done so by performance on assignments, projects and tests."

We have a form letter that we send out at the beginning of the year for all of our natural sciences that basically says what you suggested. This letter came from our curriculum department and it was approved by the superintendent.
 
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Makalakumu

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If a child came to you and said I believe the earth is flat because that is what my dad said. Would you not educate this child as well so that they understood?

This really is the crux of the issue that I'm having. My students are making claims about the subject matter that are clearly unsupportable. I want to respect their feelings, but I also feel that if I let these beliefs go unchallenged, I wouldn't be doing my job as a science teacher.
 
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Makalakumu

Makalakumu

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Try a class project. Have them do a debate. I had something similar in my high school. Have one side evolution/old earth the other side creation/young earth. See how they do.

I've thought about doing this, but I would probably require people who believe one way or another attempt to debate the side that they are NOT on.

The only problem with this approach is that it may hint that there really is parity between the two world views. As far as the evidence is concerned, there is no parity. In fact, some biology teachers I have spoken to, don't even allow a hint of creationism to be brought up because of this.

I feel that this doesn't do justice the spirit of science, but I guess that could be a solution...

Fundamentally, you are dealing with a religious opinion. Banging books on their head won't help. In their eyes, you are simply trying to change their religion.

Sigh.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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This really is the crux of the issue that I'm having. My students are making claims about the subject matter that are clearly unsupportable. I want to respect their feelings, but I also feel that if I let these beliefs go unchallenged, I wouldn't be doing my job as a science teacher.

Yes you are in a challenging position. However, I think you will find the right solution and also in the process stick to science. Good luck.
 
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Makalakumu

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Even if the person believes the building is only 20 feet tall, the second answer accurately answers the question, the first is a dodge based on an agenda.

Good points. I have to wonder if they are being taught in their church to openly challenge this stuff in class.
 
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Makalakumu

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This is weird. I just got this e-mail from a student...

Here is the rest of the evidence that the Bible is true:

F Fulfilled prophecy - hundred of them
A Archeology - never contradicts what the Bible says
S Supernatural unity - 1600 years, over 40 authors, 3 languages, all consistent with each other
T Testimony of Jesus Christ - He believed the Bible, called them scriptures, etc
P Power to change lives - Many lives transformed - what other book has this?
U Unique teaching - GRACE (not works)
P Preservation - Thousands of manuscripts to compare and test, what we have is reliable
P Publication - in more languages and more quantities than any other book by far
Y You - it speaks the truth - tells of the sin of it's characters, and tells us we are sinners and inconsistent.

It shows that she is at least trying to comply with my request that she back what she is saying up with some sort of evidence and reasoning.

Do I attempt to show that this is not good evidence or good reasoning?

Also, note the acronym. That tells me that there is some other authority at work, encouraging the students to challenge their teachers at school.
 

morph4me

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I believe that every student passes or fails on his or her own merit. You pass along the information, and you test them on their retention and understanding of the information, not on their beliefs. You can respect their beliefs, but they have to respect your beliefs, and more importantly, your authority.

I think that you have to make it clear to them that you are not questioning what they believe, but you are testing them on the curriculum and the way the answer the questions will determine their grades, not whether they believe the answers.
 

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Emphasize the point like you did with one of your questions (colored font added by me):

"How do scientists arrive at the conclusion that the Earth is 4.6 billion years old?"

You are asking how the scientists get their answers, not how the students themselves feel about the questions.

If you phrase your questions similarly with your tests and teaching materials, this may allow the students to be able to give the answers from the information you teach without conflicting their beliefs.

- Ceicei
 

Kacey

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We have a form letter that we send out at the beginning of the year for all of our natural sciences that basically says what you suggested. This letter came from our curriculum department and it was approved by the superintendent.

Then I'd send the letter again, and require it to be returned, signed by a parent - so when these kids flunk your class for not meeting the requirements of the class (that is, being able to demonstrate understanding - not agreement - of what was taught), they can't come back at you and say it's unfair.


Emphasize the point like you did with one of your questions (colored font added by me):

Quote:
"How do scientists arrive at the conclusion that the Earth is 4.6 billion years old?"
You are asking how the scientists get their answers, not how the students themselves feel about the questions.

If you phrase your questions similarly with your tests and teaching materials, this may allow the students to be able to give the answers from the information you teach without conflicting their beliefs.

- Ceicei

I also agree with Ceicei on this - make it clear to the students that you are asking about what scientists believe, not what they believe, and if they respond with material not from class, mark it wrong - and make sure they understand why: that it's not because their beliefs are wrong, but that they are not being asked about what they believe, they are being asked about what scientists believe - and that demonstrating understanding of the latter is necessary to pass. Then, when they don't do it (and some of them won't) fail them... then be ready for the inevitable storm of parent disapproval.

Or, you can give them an alternate project, to compare and contrast their own beliefs with those of the scientists - which means they have to demonstrate knowledge and understanding of the scientific viewpoint and how it compares to their own, without ever saying which they agree with - just how they are alike and different. For example, in the novel And Eternity, the author, Piers Anthony, has characters discussing the similarities and differences between creationism and evolutionism. Here is an some excerpt (beginning pg 221, paperback edition):

"Jolie, how does Creationism describe the beginning?"
"In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth, " Jolie replied promptly.
"And I want to know just who created God, then?" Vita said.
Roque shook his head. "That remark is out of order. You must give the Evolutionist version of the beginning."
"Well, it - gee, I've got to remember stuff I forgot in school. But it's something like how the universe was formed in a big bang about fifteen or twenty billion years ago, and-
"Who created the big bang?" Jolie asked
Vita looked nettled. "Well, I don't know"
<snip> (discussion continues)
"I really can't choose between them," Orlene said, surprised. Either God began or the universe began, or both are eternal. There really doesn't seem to be a conflict there."

The discussion continues for several pages, and the characters finally come to the agreement that different viewpoints and beliefs are not necessarily incompatible - just different explanations based on different methods of proof. One point that is brought up is "how long is a day to God"? This type of compare and contrast could allow them to express themselves and their belief system while still demonstrating to you that they have understood the material.
 

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Try a class project. Have them do a debate. I had something similar in my high school. Have one side evolution/old earth the other side creation/young earth. See how they do.

fundamentally, you are dealing with a religious opinion. Banging books on their head won't help. In their eyes, you are simply trying to change their religion.
Why? Banging a book on their head worked the first time... :) Sorry, couldn't resist.

Anyway, I'm sorry to sound cold, Upnorth, but if your texts and curriculum have been approved by the school, and you feel confident in them, then the classroom is not the place to expouse personal belief on this subject. Discussion is one thing, but defiance is inappropriate given the context. If they can't put their own bias aside to learn something new, they fail. Simple. If the parents want to go to the mat as to why their kiddies blew the test, you're in the clear.
 

michaeledward

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I'd suggest you start practicing writing that 'F' grade now. It is never too soon for a student to learn the relationship between beliefs, actions, and consequences.

Honestly, I think Kacey and CeiCei are on the best track.


It makes you wonder if anyone has published a book on 'The Science of the Bible'. I know I have seen books that cover the science of Star Trek or the science of Harry Potter. You have to wonder how one might explain Joshua being able to see the entire world from the top of a tree.


Of course, I am not a person to ask about this. I am in the "ridicule them" camp. At least it comforts them in knowing that sermon on the mount scripture has a measure of truth to it.
 

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-I know that there are a lot of intelligent people here on martialtalk; I guess I've had to deal with lots of idiots in the real world lately, cause this thread has been an absolute joy to read. You all make sense! Thankyou UpNorth for posting the question, and to all who responded. I have nothing to add to it, and must return to work now;-)

A--->
 

Ninjamom

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UpNorth, If I can please add my two-cents worth:

First, as you rightly surmised, the religious faith of these kids is part of what makes them who and what they are. You are not doing them a service by mandating they change their beliefs, or making them feel they must respond with something they truly don't believe (compromise who/what they are) in order to 'make the grade'.

Secondly, there is enough (too much) of an adversarial relation between 'faith' and 'science' in most discussions these days. Personally, I find it to be a false dichotomy, as I'm sure we all know scientists who happen to be strong believers (I just read an article by the team leader of the group that mapped the human genome, for instance). As the leader in the classroom, you will set the tone, so I strongly suggest that you work not to box the kids into a corner. If I were teaching, the goal would be to make the kids understand the theory of evolution, not to force conversion. I would word the questions, 'According to the theory of evolution......'; 'Cosmologists believe the age of the earth to be 4.3B yrs because....', etc. (e.g., I know and understand the Nazi beliefs on racial purity, the genesis of the modern eugenics movement, and their impact on the course of 20th century history, but I certainly don't agree with any of them.) Make sure the kids understand that they will be tested on knowing and understanding what the theory of evolution teaches and why it is supported, not on whether or not they agree with it. This will help them more than you know, because when/if the case comes where they will need or feel compelled to debate it, they will not be able to debate a straw man, but will know/understand the 'real thing'.

Third, may I please suggest some resources to help? One of my favorite faith-based groups is the American Scientific Affiliation, a loose association of Christian believers active in every facet of scientific endeavor. They have produced a pamphlet called 'Teaching Science in a Climate of Controversy', which may help you gain some ideas and perspective, available with other resources, here. (BTW, not one of the members of this group that I have met, or emailed, or whose articles I've read in their journal, has been a 'young-earth creationist'.)

I know and understand this community: many believers, especially young believers, understand concepts like the existence of an inerrant standard, but fail to realize that their own prejudices and interpretations will obscure what that inerrant standard really says. For someone who has never had any standards, knowing and finding some of them can sometimes lead to the wrong conclusion that we now somehow know all the standards. If in the students' minds, their bedrock belief (faith in Jesus Christ) is tied to an extraneous issue (like whether the days in Genesis are literal 24 hr periods or figurative times), then they will not be able to deny one without denying the other. One of only a few things can happen: 1) they will refuse to give up either (bedrock belief or the extraneous issue), 2) they will decide they were wrong about the extraneous issue and as a result jetison their bedrock belief, or 3) they will grow and develop a more profound theology that can recognize the difference between the non-negotiable core elements of their faith, and those things that are peripheral to it. The third option is, of course, the most healthy one, but it generally only comes with time and maturity.

Right now I am dealing with this issue with my own children - they attend a private Christian school, and are routinely bombarded with 'propaganda' for a young-earth creation. In their minds, the authority of teachers in school, the curriculum in class, and the teachings of the Bible tend to be melded - they don't have the maturity to be able to differentiate between them. I have to use care in talking to them about the problems with the young-earth view, without it affecting their view of authority in other areas. I have had several discussions with them about how we really aren't in a position to tell God how He can and can't decide to make His people, why it's not a sin to learn about evolution, and how someone's belief in evolution or creation doesn't have anything at all to do with whether or not they can get into heaven or hell.

It can help your students immensely, just being exposed to others who hold to the same standards and beliefs as theirs, but in a different way. Most of the men and women of the ASA, for instance, are credentialed, published members of the scientific community, with strong Christian faith, who believe in a literal creation by The Creator, but not in rabid anti-evolutionism or the young-earth creationism that you are dealing with. Unfortunately, such an introduction would be out-of-place and inappropriate to make in your science classroom. However, being aware of the group and its resources would probably help you immensely, to aid in your own understanding, and just in case someone asks.
 

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