We Told You So: Government Spying Has Been Targeting Innocent Citizens, not Terrorists

[5-0 Kenpo]

You don't hear much about all the Al Queida (sp) attacks against Panama, Brazil, India, or Easter Island. Why? They aren't major supporters and backers of Israel nor are they stuck in a war in the mid-east.

It is not specifically our support of Israel. It is the fact that we are heathins in the land that they traditionally consider the land of the Caliphate (all lands that were occupied and controlled by Muslims before the fall of the Ottoman Empire, to include Spain). As against Israel, they must defend the Caliphate before they can expand to other lands on this planet.

I don't know. I see no reason to continue to shore up Israel.

You are entitled to your opinion, fair enough. But do you really want to equate why we should defend someone with the idea that they must provide some material support in exchange? So if your are being attacked on the street, a bystandard walking by should not help you because he will gain no material support from helping you? I think your argument for this could be better developed.

Twin Fist:

Here's what we can do. We can take every U.S. citizen and place them in barracks, surrounded by gun towers (with the guns facing out, of course)and barbed wire, and subject to checkpoints whenever they cross into another district. Anyone without the proper papers and identification to justify where they are going is subject to arrest.

I can then virtually guarantee (absolutely nothing is 10%) that there will be no terrorist attack upon the people within the U.S. Would this action taken on the part of the government be acceptable to you. After all, your point is that we need to give up rights in order to be secure, right?

 

[Twin Fist]

wow, congrats, we are talking about "a" and you just went and jumped all the way to "s"

good job...............

 

[Big Don]

So the attacks by Al Qaeda allied Muslims in Indonesia are a result of Indonesia's support of Israel?

 

[elder999]

and again, privacy has ALWAYS taken a back seat in time of war.

I am quite simply correct on that.

"Time of war?" I guess I can give that to ya....but, but, but...hasn't Mr. BuSh frequently called for making the USA PATRIOT Act permanent?

In fact, didn't its renewal in 2005 make some of its mroe onerous sections permanent already?

I suppose, since the WOT is going to go on for "a hundred years," or whatever it takes "until this enemy is defeated," that making it permanent makes a kind of BuShian sense. I used to ask its supporters, when I cared to argue about it, how they'd feel about living in the U.S. under a Hillary Clinton presidency with the PATRIOT act in effect. It's even better now, though:

How are you going to feel, living in a USA PATRIOT Act America under a Barack Hussein Obama presidency? :lfao:

 

[Twin Fist]

How are you going to feel, living in a USA PATRIOT Act America under a Barack Hussein Obama presidency? :lfao:

since i dont break any laws, plan any terror attacks, or watch child porn, i aint worried about someone listening.

now THIS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7671046.stm

would be going too far.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The US's support of Israel is -one- (1) of the reasons given.
We are rich. They are not.
We were free. They are not.
We allow women to walk around uncovered. They like women to look like potato sacks.
We don't worship as they do.
We don't follow the laws they do.
We do not value the same things.

Someone ignorant will say "it's a Muslim thing", but the whole of the Muslim world condemned the 9/11 attacks. Many of our allies are leaing Muslim dominated nations.

But people want to fall back to FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) and use it, their own bigotry, and their own ignorance, to justify the continued intrusion into our lives, and continued erosion of our core values and rights, but the government.

Right of assembly? - Controled. Careful you get all the right permits for that rally, and don't go near the President unless it's in the pecial "Free Speech Zone" set up miles out of sight.

Right to bear arms? - Controled. and everywhere they restrict theright of honest citizens to arm and defend themselves, crime rates soar.

Right to privacy? - Forget it. We're gonna staff data centers with people whose job is o listen in and see if you say anything we don't want you saying. So what if we miss the bomb planting discussion on channel 986, we're waiting for you to get to the good part on that story about what your girlfriend can do with her mouth.

posse comitatus, which forbid the use of the military against US citizens is gone, and thousands of US troops are now in the US deployed for police action and "crowd control".

the Military Commissions Act of 2006 (MCA). The MCA is the most sweeping legislation since September 11, 2001 on the powers of the President to detain, interrogate, and try people the administration deems to be “unlawful enemy combatants.”

Torture is now legal...but only against "the enemy'.

HR 1955

This is the Amerika of the 21st century komerades.
The Bill of Rights with hyperlinks to Bush's unconstitutional acts


Oh, and don't forget, We seem to have lost the right to question the government without being called a nutcase or unpatriotic. Seems only blind obedience is patriotic.

But remember, we must disarm you, spy on you, torture you, and all that great suff, to protect you from those evil terrorists who might come back. It's an orange alert day children. Heads down, minds closed, mouths shut. This is for your own good. Remember, they hated us for being so free, so to ave your freedoms from them, we took them back, and put them in the lock box up on the shelf. You'll get them back when you're ready for them.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

since i dont break any laws, plan any terror attacks, or watch child porn, i aint worried about someone listening.

now THIS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7671046.stm

would be going too far.

So, you're ok with me (if I was a government agent) listening to your phone calls, reading you mail (electronic and dead tree), and randomly asking you for your ID? How about if it was Shesulsa, or Barack Obama or Ted Kennedy?

 

[Makalakumu]

since i dont break any laws, plan any terror attacks, or watch child porn, i aint worried about someone listening.

Laws can change.

"Laws aren't there to protect you. Laws exist to make everyone a criminal. I bet you broke three laws while getting ready for work."

1984

 

[JBrainard]

So, you're ok with me (if I was a government agent) listening to your phone calls, reading you mail (electronic and dead tree), and randomly asking you for your ID?

And if Bob the government agent was doing this, he could arrest you even if you weren't violating anything in the law books (per the Patriot Act).
I hope for your sake that the concept of detainment for an indeterminate amount of time gives you a warm fuzzy.

 

[Cryozombie]

How about if it was Shesulsa, or Barack Obama or Ted Kennedy?

I don't want Shesulsa listening in on me. LOL.

 

[Big Don]

So, you're ok with me (if I was a government agent) listening to your phone calls, reading you mail (electronic and dead tree), and randomly asking you for your ID? How about if it was Shesulsa, or Barack Obama or Ted Kennedy?

As my email is 95% smartass remarks back and forth between my friends and I, they might enjoy that, as for the rest, let them suffer the boredom I do, that'll teach em.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Mine's mostly server reports. LOL

 

[Archangel M]

Who here has had any contact with the Patriot Act? And what was it.

Me=The hassle of having to get pseudoephedrine from behind the counter.

 

[Sukerkin]

Only half jokingly, would we even know if someone had? .

 

[elder999]

Who here has had any contact with the Patriot Act? And what was it.

Me=The hassle of having to get pseudoephedrine from behind the counter.

I have, and I can't say what it was. How's that?

Outside of work, though, I haven't had any that I know of. (Of course, conditions of my employment require me to submit to a higher level of scrutiny than most anyway.....)

 

[Archangel M]

Patriot Act Hysteria=Most people go all X-Files on it and dont even know the first thing about it past whats written on conspiracy theory blogs. Or just vent their current opinion based on their preconcieved politics.

http://epic.org/privacy/terrorism/hr3162.html

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200504u/nj_taylor_2005-04-19

Even the ACLU only calls for revisions on part of it. Calling the Act itself "reasonable and necessary".

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Who here has had any contact with the Patriot Act? And what was it.

Me=The hassle of having to get pseudoephedrine from behind the counter.

Go try and take a photo of certain bridges, public buildings, etc with pro gear and see how long it takes for the boys in blue to talk to you.

Flown recently? Tried crossing the border? Is your drivers licence REAL ID complient?

Someone else spelled it out better than I could.

Thanks to the act government officials can go into your home, search it, and don’t even have to tell you they were there. No warrant needed.

US officials now have the right to take away an American’s citizenship even if you were born in the US and have never left the country, or have no citizenship somewhere else.

Thanks to the act making “domestic terrorism” a crime, with a vague definition, activist exercising their right to protest can be infringed upon if their efforts are deemed “intimidating”, especially if they are protesting against government policy. Let’s hope none of us disagree with the government on anything, including a second Patriotic Act that would allow government officials to wire-tap us for seven days with out a warrant, and let us hope if we do disagree we do not shout or march our protest in a way they interpret as “intimidating”. (Infringing on 1st Amendment rights)

The Patriot Act infringes on the rights given to you by the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 8th amendments of the Bill of Rights.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread391099/pg1

Third-party holders of your financial, library, travel, video rental, phone, medical, church, synagogue, and mosque records can be searched without your knowledge or consent, providing the government says it's trying to protect against terrorism.

So, be careful. Reading the Anarchists Cookbook at your local library could put you on some watch lists, even if your reason for reading was totally legal.

 

[Archangel M]

Nothing they couldnt do before.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2003/aug/25/20030825-090130-7391r/

The above is nothing more than hyperbole that bears little relation to the facts. Long before September 11, the government had the ability to obtain these records in ordinary criminal investigations. As the Justice Department points out, "grand juries investigating ordinary crimes traditionally have had the power to issue subpoenas to all manner of businesses, including libraries and bookstores." For example, in the Unabomber investigation of the mid-1990s, federal grand juries subpoenaed library records at four universities and a public library in order to determine who had checked out the books cited in the "Unabomber Manifesto" issued by the killer. Section 215 of the Patriot Act made this investigative tool available for terrorism and foreign intelligence investigations.

This power is undeniably sweeping. But it is almost certainly constitutional under Supreme Court rulings that allow, for example, the government to see your credit card records. And it is far less invasive of privacy than, say, a wiretap. What many critics ignore is that for decades, prosecutors have had even more-sweeping powers to issue subpoenas requiring businesses and organizations, including libraries and medical facilities, to hand over any records that are arguably relevant to ordinary criminal investigations. Such subpoenas have been routinely issued without prior judicial scrutiny for many years.

Critics complain that a Section 215 order can apply to records pertaining to people not suspected of being foreign agents. (The same is true of an ordinary subpoena.) But this is as it should be. A key technique for catching terrorists is to trace their activities through those of associates who are not themselves engaged, or known to be engaged, in terrorist activities.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200504u/nj_taylor_2005-04-19

The other major target of civil libertarians is Section 213, which authorizes so-called "sneak-and-peek" warrants for what the government calls "delayed-notice" searches. Ordinarily, search warrants must be served on the subjects at the time of a search. Section 213, which is not among the provisions scheduled to sunset, recognizes several exceptions, allowing judges to delay notice of a search until after a search is already completed, when the government shows that delay may be necessary to avoid: 1) endangering life or physical safety, 2) flight from prosecution, 3) tampering with evidence, 4) intimidation of witnesses, or 5) "otherwise seriously jeopardizing an investigation or unduly delaying a trial." This last is the so-called catch-all provision.

Amid a deluge of misleading scare rhetoric about FBI agents rummaging through bedrooms and covering their tracks, most critics have ignored the fact that Section 213's main impact is to codify what courts have done for decades when necessary to avoid blowing the secrecy that is critical to some investigations.

"abovetopsecret"??-Really?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Some of the sites are questionable, their politics, skewed. But just as valid as looking for solid political content on a martial arts site. I just filter out all the tinfoil hatters I can.

 

[Sukerkin]

Angel, is it that you are pointing out that the Patriot Act was an attempt by the government to curry favour by being seen to do something about the 'crisis' and it's backfired on them?

Whereas if they'd just kept on quietly doing what they've always done, noone would have been any the wiser?

I have heard something very similar from others before, I have to say - sadly I can't recall the source as it was a few years ago (getting old you know, must write more things down ... NOO! The Secret Service will find out and I'll be off to the Tower before I can blink ROFL).