Watered Down Martial Arts

GojuTommy

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after giving some thought about why i would not allow fish hooking in a rule set i create, beyond 'thats just how everyone else has done it' here are the reasons I have come up with.

Unsporting- it makes a very hard to defend technique (without biting) that controls the head, and for it to get to the level of danger so many here are afraid of, you must first achieve a very dominant position, as well as being low skill.
Dangerous to the user- seemingly high risk of accidental bites causing serious wounds to the fingers.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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after giving some thought about why i would not allow fish hooking in a rule set i create, beyond 'thats just how everyone else has done it' here are the reasons I have come up with.

Unsporting- it makes a very hard to defend technique (without biting) that controls the head, and for it to get to the level of danger so many here are afraid of, you must first achieve a very dominant position, as well as being low skill.
Dangerous to the user- seemingly high risk of accidental bites causing serious wounds to the fingers.
True, missing fingers could make for a difficult time grappling.
 

Oily Dragon

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Expert opinion in what exactly? Expert at running a sport promotion? That certainly doesnt qualify them speak with authority on the subject.
Expert at the sport in question? If theyve never done it or had it done to them what authority do they then have to speak on it?

Most of these rules were put into place before anyone considered doing any actual data collection and analysis on the subject of these techniques, so theyre banned simply because someone 100+ years ago had an opinion likely with out any evidence to support it, and made a rule.

Explain why headbutts are illegal in every major combat sport but have not been an issue in lethwei competitions?
"Experts in what exactly"?

Combat sports. I keep saying that, don't I? There isn't a single one that allows it, but your logic is that's really because...why?

As of now you and others are playing devil's advocate, it's kind of obvious.

And the whole arguing from ignorance (where's the evidence) is kinda backwards. How you gonna find data on a banned technique that was banned because of injury? That data is in the same place as baseball bats to the head data.

It's like you are second guessing the entire combat sports community with nothing but theory and speculation. Weird.
 
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Oily Dragon

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True, missing fingers could make for a difficult time grappling.
If you look over the history of illegal fishhooks in wrestling and MMA you'll see there's little chance of bitten fingers (since some fish hooking controls the jaw preventing biting, others avoid the teeth line entirely).

And of course, fish hooks give competition advantages, too. Wrestling 101. I already posted a video of that. Dude wins using a fishhook, other dude was so angry he punched the fish hooker.

Honestly, this entire derail has gotten dumb. Now I'm being demanded to prove why headbutts are illegal in MMA but not Lethwei?

Whatever guys. You do you.
 
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GojuTommy

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"Experts in what exactly"?

Combat sports. I keep saying that, don't I? There isn't a single one that allows it, but your logic is that's really because...why?

As of now you and others are playing devil's advocate, it's kind of obvious.

And the whole arguing from ignorance (where's the evidence) is kinda backwards. How you gonna find data on a banned technique that was banned because of injury? That data is in the same place as baseball bats to the head data.

It's like you are second guessing the entire combat sports community with nothing but theory and speculation. Weird.
Expert in combat sport is such a broad term that its essentially meaningless.

You have nothing to support you except appeals to authority.
You claim the danger and damage is well documented but cant provide any such documentation.

You make claims about rules that were created like 200+ years ago.

Western combat sports are all based around either boxing or wrestling, and even the Asian combat sports have migrated more that way because the big money is in the west.

You refuse to explain why headbutts are legal in lethwei but no where else because theres no good reason for it.
 

Dirty Dog

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Ok so I just spoke with the ED doc who trained in South Central L.A. In the 1980s. He saw the actual mouth on curb stomp there at least 5 times. I grew up near there and never saw it, so there you go. Evidence wins this one.
I do think it's mostly a thing in metropolitan areas, especially those with a lot of gangs. Partly because a lot of gang violence means a lot of trauma, and a lot more opportunity for things like curb stomping.
It may be that the curb stomp is a rarity outside of some certain areas or culture groups. In the cases my Dr. friend treated, he said they were all gang related jump outs meaning the injury was a specific punishment for leaving the gang they were in. As far as fish hooking, he said he has never seen that injury in over 35 years of being an emergency room Dr.
Nope. Neither have I.
after giving some thought about why i would not allow fish hooking in a rule set i create, beyond 'thats just how everyone else has done it' here are the reasons I have come up with.
I call that "cultural inertia"; "we do it that way because we've always done it that way". Cultural inertia can be a problem in many fields. And I think you're right about that being the prime motivator in this case.

"Experts in what exactly"?

Combat sports. I keep saying that, don't I? There isn't a single one that allows it, but your logic is that's really because...why?
Right, but what makes you think people they are experts in the trauma purportedly attributed to fish hooking? Because there doesn't appear to be any actual evidence to support that belief.
As of now you and others are playing devil's advocate, it's kind of obvious.
Not at all. We are unable to find any evidence that your claim is correct. Zip. Zero. Zilch. Nada.
And we are asking you to provide some. You have not. You have backpedaled. You have moved the goal posts. You have made demonstrably false statements.

Your reliance on Truth by Blatant Assertion, Appeal to Authority, and flat out BS is not making your argument more credible.
And the whole arguing from ignorance (where's the evidence) is kinda backwards.
Arguing from ignorance is what you call making claims without any supporting evidence and then making up evidence.
How you gonna find data on a banned technique that was banned because of injury?
The same place you find data on knife wounds and other non-sporting methods of ending fighting.
That data is in the same place as baseball bats to the head data.
Oh, that's easy then.


I doubt it was a baseball bat 33,000 years ago, but blunt force is blunt force. I doubt Ogg hitting Erg with an ox femur is significantly different to John smacking Bob with a bat.

This is what is meant by "well documented in trauma medicine", by the way. Just in case you weren't clear about what that phrase meant when you claimed it to be true of fish hooking injuries.

So yet another demonstrably false claim. The data on fish hooking injuries is CLEARLY not "in the same place as baseball bats to the head data", because if it was, I could find it.

It's like you are second guessing the entire combat sports community with nothing but theory and speculation. Weird.
It's like you're making crap up as you go along to support an untenable position. Weird.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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"Experts in what exactly"?

Combat sports. I keep saying that, don't I? There isn't a single one that allows it, but your logic is that's really because...why?

As of now you and others are playing devil's advocate, it's kind of obvious.

And the whole arguing from ignorance (where's the evidence) is kinda backwards. How you gonna find data on a banned technique that was banned because of injury? That data is in the same place as baseball bats to the head data.

It's like you are second guessing the entire combat sports community with nothing but theory and speculation. Weird.
I love to question the whole combat sports industry, its fun. I dont really have a dog in this fight, but I might be stirring the pot a bit to see what surfaces.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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If you look over the history of illegal fishhooks in wrestling and MMA you'll see there's little chance of bitten fingers (since some fish hooking controls the jaw preventing biting, others avoid the teeth line entirely).

And of course, fish hooks give competition advantages, too. Wrestling 101. I already posted a video of that. Dude wins using a fishhook, other dude was so angry he punched the fish hooker.

Honestly, this entire derail has gotten dumb. Now I'm being demanded to prove why headbutts are illegal in MMA but not Lethwei?

Whatever guys. You do you.
Oh Im not demanding anything. I really have no grounds to dispute what you say here. Im actually interested but just being my jackass self.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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I do think it's mostly a thing in metropolitan areas, especially those with a lot of gangs. Partly because a lot of gang violence means a lot of trauma, and a lot more opportunity for things like curb stomping.

Nope. Neither have I.

I call that "cultural inertia"; "we do it that way because we've always done it that way". Cultural inertia can be a problem in many fields. And I think you're right about that being the prime motivator in this case.


Right, but what makes you think people they are experts in the trauma purportedly attributed to fish hooking? Because there doesn't appear to be any actual evidence to support that belief.

Not at all. We are unable to find any evidence that your claim is correct. Zip. Zero. Zilch. Nada.
And we are asking you to provide some. You have not. You have backpedaled. You have moved the goal posts. You have made demonstrably false statements.

Your reliance on Truth by Blatant Assertion, Appeal to Authority, and flat out BS is not making your argument more credible.

Arguing from ignorance is what you call making claims without any supporting evidence and then making up evidence.

The same place you find data on knife wounds and other non-sporting methods of ending fighting.

Oh, that's easy then.


I doubt it was a baseball bat 33,000 years ago, but blunt force is blunt force. I doubt Ogg hitting Erg with an ox femur is significantly different to John smacking Bob with a bat.

This is what is meant by "well documented in trauma medicine", by the way. Just in case you weren't clear about what that phrase meant when you claimed it to be true of fish hooking injuries.

So yet another demonstrably false claim. The data on fish hooking injuries is CLEARLY not "in the same place as baseball bats to the head data", because if it was, I could find it.


It's like you're making crap up as you go along to support an untenable position. Weird.
Theres an ICD 10 code for it?! I can hardly believe it. Wait, is there an ICD 10 code for fish hooking? I know a couple of max/face surgeons I should have asked about this earlier.
 

drop bear

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He DID provide proof. Even "google" fish hooking and when it describes it, it says that it is banned from combat sports because of its dangerous nature and high probability of injury.

Not sure what else could be provided. What would YOU actually accept as proof for the reason fish hooking is banned?

It is also pretty icky. Oil checks are not exactly lethal. But I don't think they are acceptable in most competitions.
 

Dirty Dog

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Theres an ICD 10 code for it?! I can hardly believe it. Wait, is there an ICD 10 code for fish hooking? I know a couple of max/face surgeons I should have asked about this earlier.
No, there is not. Which is telling, I think. I mean, something that is "well documented in trauma medicine" would have an ICD 10 code.
It is also pretty icky. Oil checks are not exactly lethal. But I don't think they are acceptable in most competitions.
Unless the competition involves plastic sheets and canola oil, right?
 

GojuTommy

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So I think we can sum things up as theres a lot of myths about techniques banned in sports

A lot of them seem to pose only a minor danger if the person doing them does not have a dominant position, while posing a much serious threat though how serious is up for serious debate, if the person doing them has a dominant position.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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So I think we can sum things up as theres a lot of myths about techniques banned in sports

A lot of them seem to pose only a minor danger if the person doing them does not have a dominant position, while posing a much serious threat though how serious is up for serious debate, if the person doing them has a dominant position.
Well if I am in the dominant position when I oil check, its not nearly as dangerous as it would be without the canola oil and plastic sheets.
 

Steve

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Just to throw out a different point of view, while it's true that some rules are made for safety, there are reasons other than safety that rules are made in combat sports. Sometimes, it's just about what will make the sport more enjoyable to watch or in which to participate. If fish hooking were legal in MMA, would that make the sport more enjoyable and accessible to the average member of the public or less? Optics are involved. Marketability is involved. Safety, too... but just one of several considerations.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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So I think we can sum things up as theres a lot of myths about techniques banned in sports

A lot of them seem to pose only a minor danger if the person doing them does not have a dominant position, while posing a much serious threat though how serious is up for serious debate, if the person doing them has a dominant position.
We could debate the match by watching the tape after.
 

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