Watered Down Martial Arts

Wing Woo Gar

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Fish hooking is one of the oldest banned techniques in combat sports history for a good reason. Come on...tearing someone's face apart is unsporty. It's especially unwanted in grappling sports. Try it you'll get DQ'd, punched, ostracized. You also might win the match but should feel terrible.

The "literature" is pretty well documented in trauma medicine. And you won't find many videos, data etc.from the combat sports side, because it's banned.

The extreme street version is called "curb stomping". That's where the "hook" is concrete.
Totally illegal, 10-20 year bid.
Ive heard a lot about this mythical curb stomp. Mouth on curb? I doubt that its real.
 

Dirty Dog

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Fish hooking is one of the oldest banned techniques in combat sports history for a good reason.
Which still does nothing to support your claims. Data is data. Opinions are opinions, even ones that have been held for a long time.
Come on...tearing someone's face apart is unsporty.
If you can tear their cheek, it'll lead to some nasty scaring. It's not that easy to do, though. The cheek is pretty tough. Lots of strong muscles in there. And the lethality is pretty low.
It's especially unwanted in grappling sports. Try it you'll get DQ'd, punched, ostracized. You also might win the match but should feel terrible.
Again, nothing there to support your "deadly" claim.
The "literature" is pretty well documented in trauma medicine.
Is it? The why have I never treated such an injury in 40+ years in the ER? Nor can I recall seeing a write up on fish hooking injuries in any of the journals. Nor can I find any using Goofle or Medscape... It seems unlikely this would be the case for something "pretty well documented in trauma medicine".
I did find one newspaper report of a man who fish hooked a woman during a domestic violence incident. He was charged with simple assault, because as reprehensible as his actions were, they didn't cause any injury at all. Only the fear of an injury.
And you won't find many videos, data etc.from the combat sports side, because it's banned.
And apparently it's banned from assaults as well. Who knew?
The extreme street version is called "curb stomping". That's where the "hook" is concrete.
That's not correct. Curb stomping is exactly what it sounds like. Put their body part on the curb, and stomp on it. It's usually the head, but I've seen arms and legs broken by this method many times. Unlike those terrible fish hooking injuries.
 

Dirty Dog

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Ive heard a lot about this mythical curb stomp. Mouth on curb? I doubt that its real.
It's a real thing. I doubt it's ever that precise. I've seen plenty of injuries from someone getting parts of their anatomy between the curb and a foot. The curb stomps involving the head are frequently fatal. Or worse.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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Which still does nothing to support your claims. Data is data. Opinions are opinions, even ones that have been held for a long time.

If you can tear their cheek, it'll lead to some nasty scaring. It's not that easy to do, though. The cheek is pretty tough. Lots of strong muscles in there. And the lethality is pretty low.

Again, nothing there to support your "deadly" claim.

Is it? The why have I never treated such an injury in 40+ years in the ER? Nor can I recall seeing a write up on fish hooking injuries in any of the journals. Nor can I find any using Goofle or Medscape... It seems unlikely this would be the case for something "pretty well documented in trauma medicine".
I did find one newspaper report of a man who fish hooked a woman during a domestic violence incident. He was charged with simple assault, because as reprehensible as his actions were, they didn't cause any injury at all. Only the fear of an injury.

And apparently it's banned from assaults as well. Who knew?

That's not correct. Curb stomping is exactly what it sounds like. Put their body part on the curb, and stomp on it. It's usually the head, but I've seen arms and legs broken by this method many times. Unlike those terrible fish hooking injuries.
The arm yes. The leg yes. I havent ever seen someone move a persons mouth onto a curb.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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It's a real thing. I doubt it's ever that precise. I've seen plenty of injuries from someone getting parts of their anatomy between the curb and a foot. The curb stomps involving the head are frequently fatal. Or worse.
Ok there you go, evidence. I have stomped (not with a curb)on a head, luckily, he didnt die. I have stomped an arm and a hand or two also, very effective. I will ask around here and see what the docs tell me about their experiences.
 

Oily Dragon

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Which still does nothing to support your claims. Data is data. Opinions are opinions, even ones that have been held for a long time.

If you can tear their cheek, it'll lead to some nasty scaring. It's not that easy to do, though. The cheek is pretty tough. Lots of strong muscles in there. And the lethality is pretty low.

Again, nothing there to support your "deadly" claim.

Is it? The why have I never treated such an injury in 40+ years in the ER? Nor can I recall seeing a write up on fish hooking injuries in any of the journals. Nor can I find any using Goofle or Medscape... It seems unlikely this would be the case for something "pretty well documented in trauma medicine".
I did find one newspaper report of a man who fish hooked a woman during a domestic violence incident. He was charged with simple assault, because as reprehensible as his actions were, they didn't cause any injury at all. Only the fear of an injury.

And apparently it's banned from assaults as well. Who knew?

That's not correct. Curb stomping is exactly what it sounds like. Put their body part on the curb, and stomp on it. It's usually the head, but I've seen arms and legs broken by this method many times. Unlike those terrible fish hooking injuries.
What's your alternative theory then?

Fish hooking is banned because...? Dirty fingers? Sexual penetration? Why would Vale Tudo ban such a mediocre technique?

I'll go with contact sports experts on this issue (banned for danger), but thanks for your input.

This is one of the weirdest things I've seen argued on MT...techniques banned for mystical reasons other than injury/death. I don't think that's a thing.
 
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Dirty Dog

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The arm yes. The leg yes. I havent ever seen someone move a persons mouth onto a curb.
As I said, I doubt anyone has the time to be that specific, and most of the ones I've seen involving the head were fatal, often DRT.
Ok there you go, evidence. I have stomped (not with a curb)on a head, luckily, he didnt die. I have stomped an arm and a hand or two also, very effective. I will ask around here and see what the docs tell me about their experiences.
The curb makes a huge difference. It is a non-compressible surface, and when the stomping is done (as it generally is) on the edge of the curb or on the part of the limb with a gap behind it, it is extremely destructive. Open fractures are common.
What's your alternative theory then?
Do I need one? I'm asking you to provide something other than unsupported opinion for YOUR theory. Unsupported, so that ties in with the curb stomping...

If I was to guess, I would say it's because facial injuries have a massive "ick" factor, and people want to avoid them for that reason. And perhaps also because if you tried to fish hook me, I'd certainly do my level best to bite your finger right off. Which is also something sporting associations would prefer to avoid. But those are just guesses, mind you.
Fish hooking is banned because...? Dirty fingers? Sexual penetration? Why would Vale Tudo ban such a mediocre technique?

I'll go with contact sports experts on this issue (banned for danger), but thanks for your input.

This is one of the weirdest things I've seen argued on MT...techniques banned for mystical reasons other than injury/death. I don't think that's a thing.
You are free to believe whatever you like. But unsupported opinion, even from an expert, is still unsupported opinion.

So are you retracting your statement that these injuries are "well documented in trauma medicine" yet? Because that doesn't seem to be the case. Standing behind one claim which has been shown to be false does not help your other unsupported claim...
 

Oily Dragon

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As I said, I doubt anyone has the time to be that specific, and most of the ones I've seen involving the head were fatal, often DRT.

The curb makes a huge difference. It is a non-compressible surface, and when the stomping is done (as it generally is) on the edge of the curb or on the part of the limb with a gap behind it, it is extremely destructive. Open fractures are common.

Do I need one? I'm asking you to provide something other than unsupported opinion for YOUR theory. Unsupported, so that ties in with the curb stomping...

If I was to guess, I would say it's because facial injuries have a massive "ick" factor, and people want to avoid them for that reason. And perhaps also because if you tried to fish hook me, I'd certainly do my level best to bite your finger right off. Which is also something sporting associations would prefer to avoid. But those are just guesses, mind you.

You are free to believe whatever you like. But unsupported opinion, even from an expert, is still unsupported opinion.

So are you retracting your statement that these injuries are "well documented in trauma medicine" yet? Because that doesn't seem to be the case. Standing behind one claim which has been shown to be false does not help your other unsupported claim...
No, like I said I'll stick with expert opinion, until someone puts forward a reasonable alternative as to why fish hooking is illegal is every modern.combat sport.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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Ok so I just spoke with the ED doc who trained in South Central L.A. In the 1980s. He saw the actual mouth on curb stomp there at least 5 times. I grew up near there and never saw it, so there you go. Evidence wins this one.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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What's your alternative theory then?

Fish hooking is banned because...? Dirty fingers? Sexual penetration? Why would Vale Tudo ban such a mediocre technique?

I'll go with contact sports experts on this issue (banned for danger), but thanks for your input.

This is one of the weirdest things I've seen argued on MT...techniques banned for mystical reasons other than injury/death. I don't think that's a thing.
I agree its an odd one.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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As I said, I doubt anyone has the time to be that specific, and most of the ones I've seen involving the head were fatal, often DRT.

The curb makes a huge difference. It is a non-compressible surface, and when the stomping is done (as it generally is) on the edge of the curb or on the part of the limb with a gap behind it, it is extremely destructive. Open fractures are common.

Do I need one? I'm asking you to provide something other than unsupported opinion for YOUR theory. Unsupported, so that ties in with the curb stomping...

If I was to guess, I would say it's because facial injuries have a massive "ick" factor, and people want to avoid them for that reason. And perhaps also because if you tried to fish hook me, I'd certainly do my level best to bite your finger right off. Which is also something sporting associations would prefer to avoid. But those are just guesses, mind you.

You are free to believe whatever you like. But unsupported opinion, even from an expert, is still unsupported opinion.

So are you retracting your statement that these injuries are "well documented in trauma medicine" yet? Because that doesn't seem to be the case. Standing behind one claim which has been shown to be false does not help your other unsupported claim...
It may be that the curb stomp is a rarity outside of some certain areas or culture groups. In the cases my Dr. friend treated, he said they were all gang related jump outs meaning the injury was a specific punishment for leaving the gang they were in. As far as fish hooking, he said he has never seen that injury in over 35 years of being an emergency room Dr.
 

GojuTommy

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Why make a foul then if its no more dangerous than any other technique? A 12 to 6 elbow isnt allowed, I believe that its a great way to get someone to expose the throat when you have their back, like bouncing their head against the ground. When they arch back to resist the next bounce, naked choke. Small joint manipulation isnt deadly and likely not a fight ending move but its also a foul. Head butting? Biting? Why ban it?
Perception/misconception, unsporting, simply copying other sports rules, etc.
Kicking is illegal in boxing but is anyone going to say kicking is simply too dangerous. Head butting is illegal in every major combat sport, but legal in lethwei which has shown its no more dangerous than any other technique used in KB, MT, or MMA.

I dont think fish hooks should be in sport, largely because its unsporting and low skill, and can only be effectively employed once you have already achieved once you have a dominating position.
 

GojuTommy

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So you have no evidence to support your claim that there's a different reason. Got it, thanks for being honest about your own lack of source.

At least I shared an actual propositional proof. You didn't even address that. That wasn't "my opinion" dude, that was MMA, Vale Tudo, wrestling rules. Your argument is in opposition to those, which is odd. Everyone in combat sporting seems to agree on this, but you.

So, how many students do you own again on the mats, that can't pull off fishhooks? Seriously, genuinely curious.
Again being against the rules isnt a support of your argument and a point against mine, because I never said it should be legal in sport.
 

GojuTommy

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Which still does nothing to support your claims. Data is data. Opinions are opinions, even ones that have been held for a long time.

If you can tear their cheek, it'll lead to some nasty scaring. It's not that easy to do, though. The cheek is pretty tough. Lots of strong muscles in there. And the lethality is pretty low.

Again, nothing there to support your "deadly" claim.

Is it? The why have I never treated such an injury in 40+ years in the ER? Nor can I recall seeing a write up on fish hooking injuries in any of the journals. Nor can I find any using Goofle or Medscape... It seems unlikely this would be the case for something "pretty well documented in trauma medicine".
I did find one newspaper report of a man who fish hooked a woman during a domestic violence incident. He was charged with simple assault, because as reprehensible as his actions were, they didn't cause any injury at all. Only the fear of an injury.

And apparently it's banned from assaults as well. Who knew?

That's not correct. Curb stomping is exactly what it sounds like. Put their body part on the curb, and stomp on it. It's usually the head, but I've seen arms and legs broken by this method many times. Unlike those terrible fish hooking injuries.
You think if it was so well documented he would have shared some of that documentation.
Id also like to note as a second ER datapoint that after nearly 3 years of hospital security Ive never seen someone in our ER from any injury that could be attributed to fish hooking by any reasonable person.

Id agree the risk of serious damage effecting quality of life almost immediately even from an accidental bite would be reason enough to not to allow the fish hook.
 
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Wing Woo Gar

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As I said, I doubt anyone has the time to be that specific, and most of the ones I've seen involving the head were fatal, often DRT.

The curb makes a huge difference. It is a non-compressible surface, and when the stomping is done (as it generally is) on the edge of the curb or on the part of the limb with a gap behind it, it is extremely destructive. Open fractures are common.

Do I need one? I'm asking you to provide something other than unsupported opinion for YOUR theory. Unsupported, so that ties in with the curb stomping...

If I was to guess, I would say it's because facial injuries have a massive "ick" factor, and people want to avoid them for that reason. And perhaps also because if you tried to fish hook me, I'd certainly do my level best to bite your finger right off. Which is also something sporting associations would prefer to avoid. But those are just guesses, mind you.

You are free to believe whatever you like. But unsupported opinion, even from an expert, is still unsupported opinion.

So are you retracting your statement that these injuries are "well documented in trauma medicine" yet? Because that doesn't seem to be the case. Standing behind one claim which has been shown to be false does not help your other unsupported claim...
 

GojuTommy

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No, like I said I'll stick with expert opinion, until someone puts forward a reasonable alternative as to why fish hooking is illegal is every modern.combat sport.
Expert opinion in what exactly? Expert at running a sport promotion? That certainly doesnt qualify them speak with authority on the subject.
Expert at the sport in question? If theyve never done it or had it done to them what authority do they then have to speak on it?

Most of these rules were put into place before anyone considered doing any actual data collection and analysis on the subject of these techniques, so theyre banned simply because someone 100+ years ago had an opinion likely with out any evidence to support it, and made a rule.

Explain why headbutts are illegal in every major combat sport but have not been an issue in lethwei competitions?
 
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Wing Woo Gar

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Expert opinion in what exactly? Expert at running a sport promotion? That certainly doesnt qualify them speak with authority on the subject.
Expert at the sport in question? If theyve never done it or had it done to them what authority do they then have to speak on it?

Most of these rules were put into place before anyone considered doing any actual data collection and analysis on the subject of these techniques, so theyre banned simply because someone 100+ years ago had an opinion likely with out any evidence to support it, and made a rule.

Explain why head hurts are illegal in every major combat sport but have not been an issue in lethwei competitions?
TBI is a real and documented risk in football. Whats so unsporting about a 12 to 6 elbow?
 

GojuTommy

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TBI is a real and documented risk in football. Whats so unsporting about a 12 to 6 elbow?
TBI and CTE are very real i just watched a heart breaking look into it in combat sports, however if we're going to allow punches, kicks, knees, and elbows to the head, CTE/TBI is not enough of a reason to ban headbutts, which have been banned in boxing since long before anyone knew what TBI or CTE were and just called it 'punch drunk'

nothing is unsporting about it. It was banned i believe because it has a higher rate of opening up cuts to the head, which while often minor, bleed horrendously, and the appearance of being vicious and wild is what got MMA initially banned in so many states to begin with. while also being very difficult to defend against as it's typically coming from above/behind. the behind aspect could also be a big reason as well, to help ensure no 12-6 elbows are striking the spine.
 
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