Was Rokas wrong about bujinkan?

Nigel

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In general class we train drills and do specific sparring only. Ie exercises to train specific techniques & adaptions under pressure/resistance
I’m not a fan of free sparring for a bunch of reasons, but I and any of our more experienced folk will roll with anyone
All bujinkan dojos practice randori. This is freestyle sparing and its part of the curriculum.
 
D

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Only thing i can say is, they did this to themselves as a style, its pretty centralised. And the wiki page even says hes moved away from ninjutsu focus, becuase of the mockery.

i dont really know what Bujinkan is, but its lingege and the like is disputed, and its legitmacy is disputed, so is its functionality as a fighting sytem.

you need to establish a rule and judge it on the rule. No point looking at prodidgies in the field, no use looking at people who cant do it right either. (exeptions)

id consider it ehh to compare it to combat sports as well, i wouldnt say fair as nothing in real life is fair, and people can be drastically diffrent in ability so it will never truely be fair. Just imagine complaining a sprinter can run faster than a distance runner or a distance runner can go further thana sprinter, they have both speiclsied in the opposite of each other and built their bodies to do that specilism the best.

I dont think its really on topic, but this is a fair point, for everything really.
 

Tony Dismukes

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All bujinkan dojos practice randori. This is freestyle sparing and its part of the curriculum.
Not in the sense that most systems use the words “randori” or “freestyle sparring“. They may do “randori” in the Aikido sense of a defender improvising responses to an uke feeding simple attacks, but it is extremely uncommon to find Bujinkan dojos with actual freestyle sparring where both participants are working to defe the other.
 

dunc

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All bujinkan dojos practice randori. This is freestyle sparing and its part of the curriculum.
You're correct in that Bujinkan dojos practice freely responding to the situation
However, as Tony says very few practice this under pressure and even fewer practice pressured and unscripted
 

dunc

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Only thing i can say is, they did this to themselves as a style, its pretty centralised. And the wiki page even says hes moved away from ninjutsu focus, becuase of the mockery.

i dont really know what Bujinkan is, but its lingege and the like is disputed, and its legitmacy is disputed, so is its functionality as a fighting sytem.

you need to establish a rule and judge it on the rule. No point looking at prodidgies in the field, no use looking at people who cant do it right either. (exeptions)

id consider it ehh to compare it to combat sports as well, i wouldnt say fair as nothing in real life is fair, and people can be drastically diffrent in ability so it will never truely be fair. Just imagine complaining a sprinter can run faster than a distance runner or a distance runner can go further thana sprinter, they have both speiclsied in the opposite of each other and built their bodies to do that specilism the best.

I dont think its really on topic, but this is a fair point, for everything really.
Hi
I think it's a bit strange to say that you don't know what the Bujinkan is and then to comment on it
It is pretty centralised in that a lot of folk travel(ed) to Japan regularly, but it's also an organisation that gives its members a high degree of freedom as to how they train, what they teach etc etc
The vast majority of the curriculum comes from lineages that are very well documented and agreed upon. The lineage of the less well documented traditions is much better understood now because some people actually took the time to do the research, but unfortunately many people put a lot of negative content out there before looking into it fully
I'd agree with your point about comparing to combat sports
D
 

Tony Dismukes

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The vast majority of the curriculum comes from lineages that are very well documented and agreed upon. The lineage of the less well documented traditions is much better understood now because some people actually took the time to do the research, but unfortunately many people put a lot of negative content out there before looking into it fully
It's been a long time since I've trained in the Bujinkan or even visited a dojo, although I do periodically check out what various Bujinkan folks put out on YouTube. I wonder sometimes what percentage of practice these days goes towards fundamentals which were passed down from the historical lineages vs certain ... creative (to put it politely) interpretations of the perceived principles which have been promulgated by various instructors from Hatsumi on down.

In my experience, the Bujinkan had plenty of reasonably sound fundamental techniques which seem to be in line with other historical Japanese systems I've seen footage of. The specifics might be a bit stylized compared to actual application, but I could believe that somebody at some point in the past actually used something like those techniques in a real fight, and many of them could be tweaked to have a reasonable modern application. Not all of them are high-percentage moves, but they could work given the right circumstances.

Then ... there are the moves which I would be willing to bet the entirety of my bank account that nobody in the history of human fighting has ever used in a real fight. Techniques which would only work if the opponent had a sudden stroke and became paralyzed in the middle of their movement. I have a strong suspicion that these techniques were not included in the historical lineages, but were created by current instructors showing off what they can do with overly compliant students who have been conditioned to feed slow-motion, incompetent attacks and then stand still with their arms outstretched while their teacher does whatever silly stuff occurs to them. Unfortunately this isn't just limited to some insufficiently trained individuals. I've seen techniques like that taught by Hatsumi and by other instructors holding high rank in the Bujinkan.
 

dunc

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It's been a long time since I've trained in the Bujinkan or even visited a dojo, although I do periodically check out what various Bujinkan folks put out on YouTube. I wonder sometimes what percentage of practice these days goes towards fundamentals which were passed down from the historical lineages vs certain ... creative (to put it politely) interpretations of the perceived principles which have been promulgated by various instructors from Hatsumi on down.

In my experience, the Bujinkan had plenty of reasonably sound fundamental techniques which seem to be in line with other historical Japanese systems I've seen footage of. The specifics might be a bit stylized compared to actual application, but I could believe that somebody at some point in the past actually used something like those techniques in a real fight, and many of them could be tweaked to have a reasonable modern application. Not all of them are high-percentage moves, but they could work given the right circumstances.

Then ... there are the moves which I would be willing to bet the entirety of my bank account that nobody in the history of human fighting has ever used in a real fight. Techniques which would only work if the opponent had a sudden stroke and became paralyzed in the middle of their movement. I have a strong suspicion that these techniques were not included in the historical lineages, but were created by current instructors showing off what they can do with overly compliant students who have been conditioned to feed slow-motion, incompetent attacks and then stand still with their arms outstretched while their teacher does whatever silly stuff occurs to them. Unfortunately this isn't just limited to some insufficiently trained individuals. I've seen techniques like that taught by Hatsumi and by other instructors holding high rank in the Bujinkan.
Yes - if you stick to the techniques contained in the schools, AND understand their context, AND temper them with pressure, AND develop their henka (variations to typical responses/counters) THEN you have a very rich set of applicable and timeless techniques
You also have a load of interesting historical techniques and lessons that have a different kind of value for folk

But I agree the freedom to "create in the moment" is a well proven slippery slope with compliant training methods and I don't think it's a scalable way to develop folk who can fight
 
D

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Hi
I think it's a bit strange to say that you don't know what the Bujinkan is and then to comment on it
It is pretty centralised in that a lot of folk travel(ed) to Japan regularly, but it's also an organisation that gives its members a high degree of freedom as to how they train, what they teach etc etc
The vast majority of the curriculum comes from lineages that are very well documented and agreed upon. The lineage of the less well documented traditions is much better understood now because some people actually took the time to do the research, but unfortunately many people put a lot of negative content out there before looking into it fully
I'd agree with your point about comparing to combat sports
D
Outside opinion is important, the thread is about somones opinion on the style, and i never made any claim to the inner workings of it, just based on the information I can access. Case and point its mocked and viewed like this for a reason, largely because everyone finds the now well known myth of "ninjas in pajamas" lovely hillarious, and there isnt enough information on the subject to really tell if there is a"ninjutsu style", being codified etc. the maker/owner of it knowing this, has now switched the focus away from that.


As far as i can tell, the styles he claims to have done and incorporate (beyond ninjutsu), are deemed legit, the unlegitness is if he has done them, has teaching licenses in them etc. As far as i can tell from the wiki page. (some exepetions exist, explained below)

Coming from memeory largely off wikipedia and some articles and school pages, i tried to skim the wiki page and the japanese isnt registering today and its a word salad, so im just going to shove the wiki page for origins and critism below. As far as i can tell there is a aserix to some of the schools beyond ninjutsu as existing, the larger one is if it actually is licensed from them.



Is there honestly any reason to be positive or non critical towards it? You are paying to learn a martial art on the basis its functional, and real. I would honestly agree with Rokas on the point that, there are cults in martial arts, some schools are basically cults if not a blurred thin line away from being them, and some orginisations in general are, they can exist, and DO exist.

Although some of this "negativity" could come from people associating this orginisation with a diffrent one due to the ninjtusu content i mentioned earlier, and who ever is in charge has adjusted accordingly, still bad its there when its a big "?" though, but it may have some legitimate well doccumented content in it, as opposed to some of the just soley "ninjutsu" schools. You have to work with what you can access. (and yes you should be criciitcal to somone who does it as they natrually should have a bias towards it, and if cult status is achived, be in a echo chamber). I have no idea how i got here, but im keeping all of this.


Note, you should be criticial towards it, its a bad sign if people disagree or dont want you to be, nothing bad can really come of being critical in regards to assessing skill, only they will loose a client/memeber.

Addendum: Wasnt intetional to be snarky, im just fed up of the Ninja pajama myth honestly. Im fed up of the myths surrounding Ninja, and the fact there is a obvious disconnect between the west and jaapn to allow it to manifest easier. Among other things.

On that note, i think i have to give this video a watch, i was boycotting his channel and not overly intrested in watching it, but i will return after watching it, im presuming there is some evidence of it being used effectively in there.
 

Urban Trekker

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For the life of me, I can't even begin to comprehend how anyone over the age of 12 could even be interested in "becoming a ninja" or even take the whole notion seriously in the first place.

What next? A martial art called "piracy," where you learn how to fight with a cutlass and shoot a blunderbuss with a patch over one eye?
 

Steve

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For the life of me, I can't even begin to comprehend how anyone over the age of 12 could even be interested in "becoming a ninja" or even take the whole notion seriously in the first place.

What next? A martial art called "piracy," where you learn how to fight with a cutlass and shoot a blunderbuss with a patch over one eye?
That would be badass. I'm in. To be clear, I'm interested in romanticized piracy, a la Disney. The real thing was pretty nasty.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Please return to the discussion of the original topic.
There is no topic in this thread. There is just one video with no text.

Sometime I don't understand why OP starts a thread like this? Why didn't OP share his opinion first?

I have learned the following lesson before.

A: Put up a video without any text.
B: My opinion is ...
A: This is I tell and you listen thread. Nobody care about your opinion.
B: ...
 

drop bear

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For the life of me, I can't even begin to comprehend how anyone over the age of 12 could even be interested in "becoming a ninja" or even take the whole notion seriously in the first place.

What next? A martial art called "piracy," where you learn how to fight with a cutlass and shoot a blunderbuss with a patch over one eye?

I disagree. If ninjitsu lived up to the hype. I would be all over it.
 

dunc

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For the life of me, I can't even begin to comprehend how anyone over the age of 12 could even be interested in "becoming a ninja" or even take the whole notion seriously in the first place.

What next? A martial art called "piracy," where you learn how to fight with a cutlass and shoot a blunderbuss with a patch over one eye?
I think we're discussing Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu
 

Urban Trekker

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That would be badass. I'm in. To be clear, I'm interested in romanticized piracy, a la Disney. The real thing was pretty nasty.

Hmmm... but we've gotta somehow claim lineage from Henry Morgan or William Kidd. That's how we get students in the door.
 
D

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For the life of me, I can't even begin to comprehend how anyone over the age of 12 could even be interested in "becoming a ninja" or even take the whole notion seriously in the first place.

What next? A martial art called "piracy," where you learn how to fight with a cutlass and shoot a blunderbuss with a patch over one eye?
The skills itself, are legit, have reason and can be taught. I can see why you would want to learn lockpicking, and there are a few jobs that have "ninja" skills as part of their description. the pajma wearing and the apparnt disregard for what camoflauge is and means while claiming they are doing it, is complete and utter nonsense. that and its outdated anyway, and not every country has the same standards or norms for locks etc for something absed in pre electricty japan to even have any bearing in modern japan, let alone anywhere else.

although one of the jobs that comes to mind you should go into it with a pretty big computer science education, that being information security, a sub set of that is physical secuirty pen testing, so lock picking, and breaking into buildings

Addendum: I dont mean the way they teach them, i mean the action of camoflauge, stalking, bleding in, lockpicking etc are all legit and have a reason to exist, how they do them as far as i have seen is nonsenscial and wont work.
 

Urban Trekker

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The skills itself, are legit, have reason and can be taught. I can see why you would want to learn lockpicking, and there are a few jobs that have "ninja" skills as part of their description. the pajma wearing and the apparnt disregard for what camoflauge is and means while claiming they are doing it, is complete and utter nonsense. that and its outdated anyway, and not every country has the same standards or norms for locks etc for something absed in pre electricty japan to even have any bearing in modern japan, let alone anywhere else.

although one of the jobs that comes to mind you should go into it with a pretty big computer science education, that being information security, a sub set of that is physical secuirty pen testing, so lock picking, and breaking into buildings

Addendum: I dont mean the way they teach them, i mean the action of camoflauge, stalking, bleding in, lockpicking etc are all legit and have a reason to exist, how they do them as far as i have seen is nonsenscial and wont work.
Yeah, but there's also the lineage claims and the attempt to re-create something from centuries ago.

If there was actually a martial art that trained in urban and rural survival, maximization of available resources, etc, etc - but was NOT under the guise of lineage from something from the 16th century, I'd be all over it. That would be right up my alley.
 
D

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Yeah, but there's also the lineage claims and the attempt to re-create something from centuries ago.

If there was actually a martial art that trained in urban and rural survival, maximization of available resources, etc, etc - but was NOT under the guise of lineage from something from the 16th century, I'd be all over it. That would be right up my alley.
Oh dont get me wrong, Ninjutsu as a thing is highly dubious to have existed, and if it did it being codnfiied is highly dubious, and the main body that touts this has economic and political reasons to keep up apperances that it does/did.

I am by no means in the "ninjutsu is legit/existed" block. im in the, if a ninja or somone else is doing ninja things they are doing "nnnjutsu" block. And that would be the better meaning of it, as far as i know Ninja were ad hoc anyway, no real training for them, no real style etc, just ad hoc done when needed.
 
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