Was Oyama fake?

[_Simon_]

Sounds really good, hopefully you'll still use this site then, so you can maybe share some Oyama stories
That just really interests me

Haha yeah for sure, come April I'll recount the session and stories

 

[Nicholas82555]

Whether ox or bull, it still takes a tremendous amount of strength to say the least.........

 

[punisher73]

In the past, I’ve avoided discussing the “famous” Kyokushin Kaikan karate business. I needed some time to think about saying anything now, too, as I wanted to be strictly honest toward the memory of my old friend and teacher, Mas Oyama. He did a lot for me, introducing me to the karate world and giving me a new purpose in life. This changed my life completely for the best. For me, Oyama was like a father I never had. In the old days, he showed me all the things you need to be a teacher and helped me through some rough times. On the other hand, I am tired of all the phonies who did not go the straight way.

So, let me tell it like it was.

When hearing stories about the old days, remember that the Japanese are great storytellers. If the story is good, they don’t check to see if it
is true. Even today, I meet people who heard from their fathers or
grandfathers about the roughhousing I supposedly did in my younger
days. It doesn’t amaze me anymore and I am tired of telling people that the stories are impossible because if you hit somebody, you were hauled into a police station, charged, and sent to jail or kicked out of the country. I admit I had a few fights, but always with witnesses saying that I did not start it.

—

The story about Oyama fighting bulls is not true. He never met a real
bull, for he never visited Spain. I also doubt that he was gored, for
he never told me about it and he used to tell me everything.

Kurosaki Kenji was there and he told me what happened. They went early in the morning to a stockyard in Tateyama Prefecture. Workmen prepared a fat old ox for Oyama by hitting one of its horns with a hammer so that it was quite loose. Oyama did not kill the ox he only knocked off the loose horn.

Oyama showed Bill Backhus and I the 16mm “bull fighting” movie in 1959. 1 told Oyama never to show this film in Europe because it looked too phony and everyone would laugh at him. As far as I know, nobody saw that movie again.

Taken from an interview with Jon Bluming, a 6th degree under Mas. Take it for what its worth, but he also seems to agree that Mas Oyama was a great martial artist that had alot of "Paul Bunyan" stories told about him.

Another article that goes through many of the Oyama stories about his time in America.
Mas Oyama in America | The Martial Way

 

[JR 137]

Taken from an interview with Jon Bluming, a 6th degree under Mas. Take it for what its worth, but he also seems to agree that Mas Oyama was a great martial artist that had alot of "Paul Bunyan" stories told about him.

Bluming isn’t the most reliable source. He’s contradicted himself many times, and he’s said many things about people that are proven to be all out lies, either intentional lies or unknowing lies. Some his personal accounts about things that happened during his own training (stories, not who he’s trained with that I know of) have also been proven false.

I haven’t seen any video of Bluming fighting nor training, but by all accounts he’s a phenomenal MAist. His word just isn’t up to his MA skills’ standards. I have no idea if he’s being factual or not in this interview, but I wouldn’t put much weight in whatever he says. That being said, I’ve read the same stuff from different people close to Oyama, so it’s likely not that far off.

Oyama’s “legend” for lack of a better word, is immense. I’m sure the tales of his feats have been highly embellished. But his skill as a karateka can’t be denied. And his teaching skill is at least equally impressive; just look at his direct students.

 

[JR 137]

Here’s an example of Jon Bluming’s ranting. A lot of the stuff he says are outright incorrect. A lot is true, only the truth is exaggerated a bit.

Example of outright lie (knowing or unknowingly) is when he discussed Tadashi Nakamura. He said Nakamura gave himself a 10th dan when he left Kyokushin even though he didn’t meet the acceptable age in Japanese customs. Nakamura is currently 9th dan. The truth is Nakamura was promoted to 7th dan by Oyama at an earlier than usual age, due to his teaching ability, spreading of Kyokushin, fighting ability, etc. Nakamura did not promote himself when he left. He remained 7th dan for quite some time. He was promoted to 8th and later on 9th dan by a Japanese budo organization. I don’t know the organization’s name; Nakamura doesn’t mention when and who. My teacher (Nakamura’s direct student) told me about it a while back, but it’s not any big thing in our organization. Allegedly, Nakamura has said several times that he’ll never accept a 10th dan as long as he’s alive.

And the Shigeru Oyama stuff is pretty far off. I know a few people who studied under him (including my teacher) who’d just shake their heads and laugh at Bluming’s comments regarding him.

 

[JR 137]

In my previous post, I forgot to link to an interview I was referring to. Bluming’s demeanor alone says quite a bit IMO...

Jon Bluming, Europe’s first Mixed Martial Artist - Historical - Realfighting Organization

 

[_Simon_]

Ah that interview was interesting... Yeah Bluming is an interesting one... never know if he's telling the truth, but he does show alot of agendas he has from one interview I saw, quite defensive and so on, but who knows what happened I guess!

 

[punisher73]

Bluming isn’t the most reliable source. He’s contradicted himself many times, and he’s said many things about people that are proven to be all out lies, either intentional lies or unknowing lies. Some his personal accounts about things that happened during his own training (stories, not who he’s trained with that I know of) have also been proven false.

I haven’t seen any video of Bluming fighting nor training, but by all accounts he’s a phenomenal MAist. His word just isn’t up to his MA skills’ standards. I have no idea if he’s being factual or not in this interview, but I wouldn’t put much weight in whatever he says. That being said, I’ve read the same stuff from different people close to Oyama, so it’s likely not that far off.

Oyama’s “legend” for lack of a better word, is immense. I’m sure the tales of his feats have been highly embellished. But his skill as a karateka can’t be denied. And his teaching skill is at least equally impressive; just look at his direct students.

That's why I put the caveat in there about, "take it for what its worth". I thought the second article was much more objective.

Either way, it's hard to argue about the results of Oyama's training and what he was capable of passing on and creating with his style.

I remember reading an article about some of the "martial legends" that surround some of the great masters of the past and if they were "true" or not. It pointed out that their main purpose was to challenge students to push themselves harder and farther to try and achieve those results. If the bar isn't set high on what could be done, who knows how far we can go. I thought that was an interesting look at the stories.

 

[punisher73]

As an aside, if you like reading, there are two books on amazon (also kindle version) about two of Oyama's foreign Uchi Deshi's: Judd Reid and Nicholas Pettas.

Nicholas Pettas: Blue Eyed Samurai
Judd Reid: The Young Lions

Together, they were the first and last foreign students that were personal Uchi Deshi under Oyama that completed the 1000 day program.

 

[KabutoKouji]

I must read that Nicholas Pettas book - I liked him from presenting Imagine-Nation on NHK before I knew he was Kyokushin

 

[punisher73]

I must read that Nicholas Pettas book - I liked him from presenting Imagine-Nation on NHK before I knew he was Kyokushin

Out of the two books, I like Mr. Pettas' book better. In all honesty, I have probably read and reread it 5-6 times. Usually about once a year or so. I find that it helps motivate me for hard training.

 

[Zentroidal]

First of all, I'm not saying he's fake but I came across this video and wanna hear your opinion about it.

this isn't full fight. here is

at 10:15 i would recommend watching more but here you go if skeptical

 

[_Simon_]

Haha yeah for sure, come April I'll recount the session and stories

OH just realised I indeed did NOT go to this event...! Whoops! Just if anyone was keeping tabs!

 

[Oily Dragon]

this isn't full fight. here is

at 10:15 i would recommend watching more but here you go if skeptical

Animal cruelty in the name of karate.

 

[Fungus]

Animal cruelty in the name of karate.

Overselling anything, even something very good, is never tasteful.

My experience at least from modern business is that japanese philosophy is the opposite, never promise what you can't keep as you don't want to loose your face. In Japan engineers and technical developers has among the higest status in a company.

In other markets, the marketting guys often write specifications as a wish list, and the actual product may not always be up there.

I wonder who was Oyamas PR advisor or it was just different media times back then. Killing or hurting animals does not quite seem to resonate with the kyokushin dojo-kun I learned, which among other things say to refrain from violent behaviour.

 

[Gyakuto]

He was a legitimately great martial artist, but the "bullfighting" stunt was bs. (I read an article by one of his top European students years ago saying the same thing.) I'll also call shenanigans on the claim I read in one of his books that he tested his knife hands by breaking the necks of full grown German Shepards until the humane societies started complaining.

Animal cruelty is a sure-fire way of demonstrating one’s sky high testosterone levels and martial legitimacy 🙄

It's worth remembering that Obama did a stint on the pro wrestling circuit in the U.S. and later presented that experience as being a tour where he fought all comers in real challenge matches and was undefeated in 270 fights. The man was not a stranger to hucksterism.

Obama was president and a pro wrestler? Crikey my admiration for Barack has quadrupled. ‘Bone Breaker Obama’!

 

[punisher73]

As an aside, if you like reading, there are two books on amazon (also kindle version) about two of Oyama's foreign Uchi Deshi's: Judd Reid and Nicholas Pettas.

Nicholas Pettas: Blue Eyed Samurai
Judd Reid: The Young Lions

Together, they were the first and last foreign students that were personal Uchi Deshi under Oyama that completed the 1000 day program.

Judd Reid has a sequel to his book called, "The Ronin Years: Mas Oyama's Young Lion". I thought it was a good book about his training after Oyama's death and what he is doing currently.

​

 

[MetalBoar]

Animal cruelty is a sure-fire way of demonstrating one’s sky high testosterone levels and martial legitimacy 🙄

Obama was president and a pro wrestler? Crikey my admiration for Barack has quadrupled. ‘Bone Breaker Obama’!

Actually, that would be President Lincoln.

 

[Gyakuto]

Actually, that would be President Lincoln.

Ah! He was the lanky geezer? ‘Stretch the Skull Crusher’

 

[Mider]

First of all, I'm not saying he's fake but I came across this video and wanna hear your opinion about it.

Fake how? He was a skilled martial artist and trained many tough fighters.