Did Karate rotate shoulder (not hip) for punch before Mas Oyama taught it to Karate's Tameshiwari?

Tony Dismukes

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Interpreting the body dynamics behind moments in time captured by still pictures is tricky even for those who have background in what is being depicted. For those who lack that background, misinterpretation is common. You're providing a prime example of that.

From what you've said in this thread and in private messages, I'm understanding that by "shoulder rotation" you mean punching (or otherwise striking with the hand) in such a way that the shoulder on the side of the punching arm moves from behind the other shoulder to ahead of it. (For example, starting a right hand punch with the left shoulder in front and ending with the right shoulder in front.)

This is literally the default way of punching everywhere in the world. Martial arts from every country do this and completely untrained fighters do it by instinct. The small minority of martial arts that keep the shoulders completely square while punching have to train their students out of the natural tendency to turn the shoulders.

"Shoulder rotation" is not the most common way to refer to this phenomenon because the motion does not originate in the muscles of the shoulders. It originates lower in the body. The possibilities are:
1) Stepping with the feet (i.e. a lunge punch, moving from a left side lead to a right side lead while throwing a right punch).
2) Rotating the hips, which carry the entire torso (including the shoulders) along for the ride.
3) Twisting the waist, so that the shoulders move further than the hips.
4) Some combination of 1-3.

In the video below, which features Gichin Funakoshi (Oyama's first karate instructor) you can see all the options listed above. (I think some or all of this is contained in DD's video above.)

But ... you ask ... what about all those pictures of karateka with squared shoulders?

Traditional Okinawan karate was largely derived from a southern CMA (possibly Fujian White Crane or something similar) which does tend to work to an unusual extent with squared shoulders. That doesn't mean shoulder rotation is entirely absent, just that it's more subtle. Often the rotation just doesn't go as far as it would in (for example) western boxing. Sometimes the punching shoulder might go from the rear to a squared position - still rotating, just not as far. (Hey - this is why video is more helpful than still pictures. If you see a still picture of someone with squared shoulders, you don't know where their shoulders might have been a moment before or a moment later.) This might be because the older Okinawan styles were close range arts with less room for rotation Not rotating too far might also be emphasized in forms to counterbalance the fact that in the heat of a fight a fighter might naturally tend to overextend.

When Karate travelled from Okinawa to Japan, it transformed significantly based on the pre-existing martial culture. The range become longer and stances became wider. As you can see in the video above, that also led to more pronounced shoulder rotation.

Of course, even if the Okinawan and Japanese karateka were somehow the only people in the world who had never discovered shoulder rotation on their own, (they weren't) that wouldn't mean they learned it from Korea. They could have picked up the idea from countless other sources - Chinese, American, or even older (koryu) Japanese jujutsu systems.
 

Yokozuna514

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What did Mas Oyama contribute to Karate then? What did he do differently?

I train in Kyokushin. A few days ago I was teaching a kids class and had a little boy who was trying it out for the first time. He did ok for his first class but he was young and I could see his attention was wandering a little so I flipped the page and decided to play a little game based on the kihon we were doing in class. Everyone had to close their eyes and punch to the level I would call out. Half way through the game, the little boy punched at the wrong level and I asked him to do the plank wth the other kids that were not playing. The little boy flipped out, yelled at me and turned around to face the other way. His mother was horrified that he acted this way but I assured her it was fine and that there wasn't much time left. I spoke with him a little but it was clear he was not ready to rejoin the class. We continued on and finished the game and eventually the class. When everyone was dismissed, his mother made the little boy come back to apologize and I let him know that it was fine this time but he needed to know that is not the way we act in class. One of the adult brown belts also came up to me and said, "Boy you have a lot of patience". My response was, "Regardless of how tough a situation is, it is bound to end sometime. I also know that at the end of the class, I can give him back to his mother and I can go on with my night ;)."

I suppose I can answer your question but like the little boy in the story, you are probably not ready to listen. When you are, I suggest you walk into any Kyokushin dojo anywhere in the world and try a class. If you are lucky, you will get the answer to your question in short order.
 

Xue Sheng

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Before I take a hiatus

Since we seem to be in a mood to enforce the rules..... why not enforce them on this self appointed marital arts historian and admitted racist...who is PROUD of bein a racist

Might want to take a look at MY rule 4.2.5 if your in a rule enforcing mood...might want to enforce them on Mr Lee

4.2.5 Hate Speech

Hate speech is not allowed
. Posts that contain material that is racist, sexist, homophobic, bigoted, or otherwise offensive, are not allowed. While discussion of certain social and political issues may require the use of sensitive or potentially offensive terms, outside of those limited contexts the use of such terms is not allowed on this board.

Later...I'm done and taking a break
 
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Steven Lee

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Not really. Moral racism is a thing. It's not even a "racism", but it's a moral racism that I'm entitled to with my freedom & rights.

Sibak existed before Karate ever entering South Korea. Murayama Jijun recorded Baksi (Sibak) & its Nanjangbaksi street fighting. Also, Gwonbeop existed. Also, Charyuk/Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu Breaking existed independently of Karate. Even Masato Tamura corroborated its existence. Karate doing Breaking before Mas Oyama was probably from imitating Kiaijutsu or Iron Palm's Breaking culture. These traditional Korean "martial arts" are not a derivation of Karate. In fact, you probably didn't even hear of Sibak. Also, there are older pictures and writings describing traditional Korean techniques & motions.

No, regular Karate really doesn't rotate shoulder. That's a fact. As in, when Dojo teaches a basic Karate punch, the shoulder doesn't rotate. Karate textbooks showing basic Karate punch has square stationary shoulder.

Mas Oyama's Classic Karate Page 128.

I haven't seen Karate teaching basic punch by rotating shoulder.

What Japanese DNA? I don't look Japanese not even slightly; I don't have Japanese DNA mixed. You whining "self-loathing" or whatever doesn't do **** in the reality. And all rejections & punishments are supposed to happen immediately. I am supposed to move on with my life while your kind of people talk to yourselves and whine about this rightful "racism" I have. Just because you cry "self-loathing" doesn't change what I do or what I am actually doing. Also, I look Turkic Siberian, just like both my grandfathers, including big eyes with double-eyelids.
 
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Tony Dismukes

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Rightful "racism" is my moral & legal right. In real life, you are supposed to get a restraining order instead of bothering me about my racism.
Whether or not you feel your racism is justified, the MartialTalk terms and conditions you agreed to when you signed up for an account here forbid expressing that racism on this forum.
MartialTalk.com Forum Rules and Procedures

Violating those rules which you have agreed to can lead to being banned from the website.
 
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Steven Lee

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Yeah, so Karateka punching has square stationary shoulder in basic. Shoulder rotation is like an extension of Karate, not regular Karate. I was wrong about Karate not rotating shoulder in punch, but my assumption had good reasons. Karate has squared shoulders in basic punch.

I don't express racism. That guy is keep talking to me about it, I'm just responding to it within boundaries. And that guy is keep annoying me with "self-loathing" nonsense and pretending I'm "Japanese", which is disgusting, offensive and annoying. I don't want to be Japanese. That guy crying "self-loathing" doesn't change what I am doing, which is just rejecting the people I hate without any "self-loathing".

For example, my wife should value what I want over having agreed to any terms and conditions. When my wife doesn't do it, it pisses me off. It's about priority. What's more important. Me? Or violating agreed terms and conditions? It's supposed to be me. She should value me over that.

I don't have to attend a Karate gym, whether Kyokushin or not. I'm a history nerd, not a martial artist (don't want to be one). I'm not interested in learning those sports. If I have to learn a sport, I will learn a traditional Korean sport like Sibak (Taekkyeon-Yetbeob, Nalparam) and Charyuk (power circus), which have the same techniques as Karate's Tameshiwari/Breaking without having anything to do with Karate. (There are historical pictures & writings proving traditional Korean techniques & motions.) There's a sentimental value in learning traditional sport from my own country.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Yeah, so Karateka punching has square stationary shoulder in basic.
If you don't rotate and extend your shoulder, you won't obtain the maximum reach.

wushu-punch.jpg


wushu-punch-1.jpg
 

Dirty Dog

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Not really. Moral racism is a thing. It's not even a "racism", but it's a moral racism that I'm entitled to with my freedom & rights.

No such thing as moral racism. There just isn't.

[Rubbish tossed in the bin]

I haven't seen Karate teaching basic punch by rotating shoulder.

I believe this to be true. Not because Karate doesn't teach this, but because you have no training, and hence, no clue.

What Japanese DNA? I don't look Japanese not even slightly; I don't have Japanese DNA mixed.

Japanese, Korean and Chinese are genetically the same group. There is (as I pointed out before) less than a 1% difference as compared to about a 10% difference between various European genetic groups.
Same DNA. You're Japanese.
 
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Steven Lee

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Shoulder rotation is more of a mass in motion matter rather than reach. Mass in silence doesn't add to power.

See? It is this guy that lingers on racism nonsense topic. I'm just responding within boundaries. And yes there is moral racism. It is not even racism, but it's a moral racism because I (or we in such case) shouldn't have to give up any right that makes us happy for someone else. There is moral racism. Regardless of how many times you push your nonsense, I obviously keep saying there is moral racism; I still keep doing it anyway. My actions & decisions & preferences shouldn't be imposed by someone else's interests. That's why there's moral racism. It's a happy coincidence.

I took 1 years of lesson in Karate & Taekwondo at a college club among many other things. (& they never taught shoulder rotation for punching. They emphasized squared stationary shoulders in punching.. I didn't learn anything important from my college club experiences. I taught myself Breaking on my own, including hard hand strike.) Such college club experience (before I dropped out of college) is pretty meaningless, that's why I didn't talk about it. Also, even if I didn't learn any such sport, there are plenty of visual data online with videos & pictures, including Oyama's Karate textbook page 128. It's false to claim a historian not trained in sports couldn't have seen how those sports look like. Videos and pictures suffice. Don't have to be trained in those sports to research, study, publish about their histories.

You have no logic. If Korean, Japanese, Chinese have the same DNA, having the same DNA doesn't make me Japanese. Cause DNA is not what distinguishes us. It's the history & culture of our bloods that distinguish us. So, I cannot be Japanese because having the same DNA is not enough to distinguish an Asian into Japanese. I don't want to be Japanese; I'm not Japanese; I'm plain Korean. There is no self-loathing when I reject Japanese because I'm not Japanese, cause having the same DNA is not enough to make me a Japanese in traditional perception nor in definition.
 
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Gweilo

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You make a lot of references to Oyamas karate, was he not zainichii korean, a Korean that lives in Japan?
 

Gweilo

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Like Yong sul choi, th founder of Hapkido, whom returned to Korea
 
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Steven Lee

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Yeah, I have a lot of references on Oyama.

Taekkyeon-Yetbub (Sibak, Nalparam, street fighting game including punching, this sport was included in Taekkyeon, Taekkyeon has 2 sports in it). Not a derivation of Karate.

Taekkyeon-Yetbub is not a fake invention but a real Sibak culture

Hapkido and Taekwondo are irrelevant to Sibak (Taekkyeon-Yetbub, Nalparam, Gyuksul). Not to mention Subak (Gyuksul's rule at the beginning). Also, Korean had powerful Breaking Game independently of Karate. It was done by Charyuk/Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu. Also, there are Kooksundo, Sibak, Subak, Taekkyeon (Taekkyeon has 2 sports in it, Sibak is one of them which uses headbutt, punches, etc). All these traditional Korean sports have historical references independent of Karate.

Charyuk/Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu Breaking independent of Karate. Not a derivation of Karate.
History of Korean Breaking before Karate started Breaking
 

Gweilo

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Ya da ya da ya da, Hapkido and taekondo have kicks that originate from Taekkyon
 

Gweilo

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Taekkyeon originates from Subak, that has chinese influences, after korean monks that trained in the mountains, who developed very strong legs, then developed kicking techniques, that we find in more modern korean arts, they named their art, su bak gi, which became Taekkyeon
 
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Gweilo

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You also talk about gyuksul, as used by the north korean military, if gyuksul is so great, why has Kim Jong Un recently employed isreali mossad, to teach North korean military krav maga?
 
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gpseymour

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I haven't seen Karate teaching basic punch by rotating shoulder.
Most likely (because you don't understand the mechanics or the training methods) you've misunderstood a drill. Many Japanese arts teach a restricted shoulder movement to contain structure within the stance. With beginners, this often means exaggerating how small the movement should be (having them practice smaller movement early, then relaxing the restrictions as they become skilled). So your conclusions were off because you didn't understand the subject you were examining.
 

JowGaWolf

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if your truck and car hit straight on, the car will stop dead and the truck will keep going,
What kind of truck are you thinking about?
Not this truck
6150


This Truck
tar.png



Go head to head with this one and your car isn't just going to stop. It will stop and go backwards as the truck continues to drive through it. I've seen the videos.. I've seen the videos. lol
 

JowGaWolf

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Attacking my lack of martial art training is just another Ad Hominem fallacy. You are attacking me as a person rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.
I'm not attacking you. I'm stating a fact. One that you have already admitted to.

You could have easily added substance where you lack experience by simply asking martial artists if they do shoulder rotations with their striking. Had you asked that question then you would have discovered that shoulder rotation in martial arts is common and not unique to just one system.


Pictures are clearly enough beyond reasonable doubts what kind of motions are taking a place. It's judged by the experiences, common sense & the range of possibilities in the given situation by norms.
Again proof that you don't know what you are talking about. There is no way anyone can look at this and assume they know what body mechanic are involved.
funakoshi-throw-8.jpg


Kung Fu Wang posted a picture where he asked everyone if what was in the picture possible. Everyone looked at it. No one understood it. Not because we are clueless, but because it's nearly impossible to look at a martial arts picture and know what body mechanics are going on, unless you know how to do it. And I'm not even talking about how to actually apply a technique.


Even if you are black belt in a martial art, that doesn't make you an expert in its history simply because you weren't trained in history when you trained in the sports.
Most people who are black belts or upper rank students in a martial art can tell you a great deal of history and about the history of the system that they train. Who do you think the historians sources are?
 

JowGaWolf

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Thank you for proving you do not understand power generation.
lol I've literally sat here and typed 10 paragraphs and then decided that it's no longer worth it. lol. He's to bias to even listen to what people are saying.

None of your business whether someone is a racist or not. It's a rightful racism and not even racism anyway. But it's a rightful racism within my rights even if we call it that.
See the thing about racism is, if you have a right to be a racist then people have a right to comment about it and be against it. Rights aren't just for you and your benefit alone.

If this is the way that you are with everyone, then I can understand why people treat you unfavorably. It's not them, it's you. Anyone who has experienced racism will tell you, that's there's nothing right about it.
 
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