Did Karate rotate shoulder (not hip) for punch before Mas Oyama taught it to Karate's Tameshiwari?

Dirty Dog

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Yeah, mass in motion with speed. When shoving as much force as possible within as small time as possible, power is generated. Also, I can clearly break small pebbles (stone) & a bottle of ice. I know what I'm doing especially considering how I don't work out.

LOL.
I've got 8 year old students who could do those breaks. And they have a better grasp of both power generation and reality than you.

No. Studying how to do sports and studying the history of sports are two different things. Training in one doesn't mean being an expert in another.

Training in either gives you more knowledge than someone with no training in either.

Also, racism is my right. My freedom & rights shouldn't be violated just because you don't like it.

I get that you don't like the fact that you're Japanese. Such self-loathing is unhealthy.

I don't have credentials, but attacking such is Ad Hominem fallacy & Appeal to False Authority fallacy. My sources are reputable & authoritative. My conclusions come from my references.

Your sources range from sketchy to ridiculous. Your conclusions come from a racist pre-conceived bias.

I don't have authority

No, you do not. Nor any credibility. Nor any basis from which to build credibility.

I'm an amateur historian.

That's not the phrase I would use to describe you...

[Remainder of incoherent babbling deleted]
 

jobo

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Mmmmmm, not really. Two vehicles collide head on. If they're both the same mass, and traveling at the same speed, then they will expend the same amount of kinetic energy to go from speed X to zero. If they're not the same size, they will not experience the same forces. The less massive vehicle will expend the kinetic energy to go from speed X to zero plus the energy required to accelerate in the opposite direction to speed Y. The more massive vehicle will absorb the kinetic energy to go from speed X to whatever speed it still maintains when the less massive vehicle starts moving away. That is a lesser amount than required to come to a full stop.
If there is also a difference in speed between the two vehicles, then it's going to get much more complicated.
you seem to be forgetting that forces experienced by two objects in collision are EQUAL. and opposite
 

Dirty Dog

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you seem to be forgetting that forces experienced by two objects in collision are EQUAL. and opposite

Sure, but there's also TIME. And that's the factor affected by differences in mass and velocity. When you step on the brakes, you experience the same force as if you hit a brick wall. But slowly. And you survive.
 

gpseymour

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you seem to be forgetting that forces experienced by two objects in collision are EQUAL. and opposite
I'm working this through in my head, so correct me where you see my error. The force at impact (the momentary exchange that creates deformation, rebound, etc.) would be the same, I think. But if one mass is much larger (the truck-car scenario), then the larger mass continues forward, exerting an accelerating force against the smaller. Basically, they expend equal energy into the collision, but one has more energy than that.
 
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Steven Lee

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Yes it is Ad Hominem fallacy & Appeal to False Authority fallacy. Being trained in sports has nothing to do with being trained in sports history. They are 2 different fields, completely unrelated. As for me, I don't have authority cause I'm an amateur historian. However, my sources & references have complete authorities in sports history by being scholarly sources & news organization sources that haven't been damaged in reputation. They are reputable sources. Even though I don't have credentials, my references have credentials.

Being an expert in sports history has nothing to do with being an expert in how to do sports. Ad Hominem fallacy & Appeal to False Authority fallacy. You are just attacking me as a person rather than attacking the substance of argument. That's what those fallacies mean.

My conclusions follow directly from the given referenced facts. If Korean had such hand strike & Karate didn't have such hand strike, Mas Oyama taught Korean hand strikes to Karate.
 
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Steven Lee

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Pulling punch (brake) doesn't make the force bigger. When mass in motion collides with an object, it can transfer big forces within a short amount of time even if it doesn't stop right there. Whether it stops right there or keeps on going doesn't change how it delivered a big force within that time frame already anyway. So, if a car hits someone, even if the car keeps on going, it doesn't make the impact which already happened any weaker. Some people don't understand physics. How much time you spend on decelerating is irrelevant in that time unit in equation. Even if it takes 2 seconds to decelerate, you look at the force delivered within the first 1 second. That's how it works. It's about how fast you ram the forces in. Not about when you decelerate.

When doing Breaking/Tameshiwari with hand strike, hand experiences the same shock and damage as the object. The law of action & reaction. It is just that, muscle fibers (like the heel or side of hand) are used to strike hard objects cause muscle fibers are hard yet bendy. It's like hitting with a thick glove on. That's why bones are not damaged in Breaking.
 
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Dirty Dog

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I'm working this through in my head, so correct me where you see my error. The force at impact (the momentary exchange that creates deformation, rebound, etc.) would be the same, I think. But if one mass is much larger (the truck-car scenario), then the larger mass continues forward, exerting an accelerating force against the smaller. Basically, they expend equal energy into the collision, but one has more energy than that.

Basically, it's the time factor. In that scenario, the less massive vehicle experiences the X to zero deceleration in a much shorter time.
 
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Steven Lee

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Breaking pebble is not very easy due to short fulcrum issue. Also, as you can see from my body, I don't work out. Muscles make powerful strikes.

"Training in either gives you more knowledge than someone with no training in either."

No idea what you are talking about. If you trained in sports but you didn't research nor study its history, you don't know anything about its history. On the other hand, I have reputable references & sources talking about sports histories. Also, not being trained in sports like me doesn't change how much I know about their histories by reading a lot. And my sources & references are reputable.

No. Studying how to do sports and studying the history of sports are two different things. Training in one doesn't mean being an expert in another. Attacking my lack of credentials is Ad Hominem fallacy and Appeal to False Authority fallacy. You should attack the substance of argument itself, not me as in person. Also, even though I have no authority, my sources & references have authority in sports histories; they are reputable. Also, being trained in sports doesn't make you expert in sports histories. Studying how to do sports doesn't automatically make you studied and researched in sports histories.

So, Mas Oyama taught Korean hand strikes to Karate. I provided references including Black Belt magazine and Kyokushin Karate website how it was him who did in-depth research in Tameshiwari for Karate. Shoulder-rotation in hand strike happens to be one of Mas Oyama's contribution. Since Korean already had such kind of hand strike, Mas Oyama taught Korean hand strike to Karate's Tameshiwari/Breaking.
 
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jobo

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I'm working this through in my head, so correct me where you see my error. The force at impact (the momentary exchange that creates deformation, rebound, etc.) would be the same, I think. But if one mass is much larger (the truck-car scenario), then the larger mass continues forward, exerting an accelerating force against the smaller. Basically, they expend equal energy into the collision, but one has more energy than that.
yea, fly crashes into n to your wind screen, both fly and car experience the same force,one stops dead the other hardly notices, then try it with a elk
 

Dirty Dog

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Breaking pebble is not very easy due to short fulcrum issue. Also, as you can see from my body, I don't work out. Muscles make powerful strikes.

Thank you for proving you do not understand power generation.

"Training in either gives you more knowledge than someone with no training in either."

No idea what you are talking about. If you trained in sports but you didn't research nor study its history, you don't know anything about its history. On the other hand, I have reputable references & sources talking about sports histories. Also, not being trained in sports like me doesn't change how much I know about their histories by reading a lot. And my sources & references are reputable.

You have no martial arts training. You have no training as a historian. You have no training as a researcher. You have no training in logic. You have no training in, apparently, anything, that might conceivably allow you to reach rational conclusions.

The only thing you have is a pre-conceived bias based on your racism.

[Remaining nonsense deleted. It's been disproven repeatedly.]
 

gpseymour

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Yes it is Ad Hominem fallacy & Appeal to False Authority fallacy. Being trained in sports has nothing to do with being trained in sports history. They are 2 different fields, completely unrelated. As for me, I don't have authority cause I'm an amateur historian. However, my sources & references have complete authorities in sports history by being scholarly sources & news organization sources that haven't been damaged in reputation. They are reputable sources. Even though I don't have credentials, my references have credentials.

Being an expert in sports history has nothing to do with being an expert in how to do sports. Ad Hominem fallacy & Appeal to False Authority fallacy. You are just attacking me as a person rather than attacking the substance of argument. That's what those fallacies mean.

My conclusions follow directly from the given referenced facts. If Korean had such hand strike & Karate didn't have such hand strike, Mas Oyama taught Korean hand strikes to Karate.
Wrong. Just wrong, in so many ways.
 
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Steven Lee

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You are not very smart, aside from the issues with your goals, beliefs, agenda, bias. Whether I commit to "racism" or not, leave me be. None of your business whether someone is a racist or not. It's a rightful racism and not even racism anyway. But it's a rightful racism within my rights even if we call it that.

My research method is fine. I collect evidences, I present evidences, I draw conclusions. That's the typical research method used by all Academia of any field including history. Even though I don't have an authority as neither sports athlete nor historian, the sources I use have authority in history. As for my conclusions drawing from those reputable sources, they are natural.

If it's a fact that Karate didn't rotate shoulder for punching before Mas Oyama, if Mas Oyama taught that hand strike (the same as Korean hand strike) to Karate, then Mas Oyama taught Korean hand strike to Karate. What other conclusions are possible & legitimate? It's a simple matter of drawing the only possible conclusion from given referenced facts which have authority as reputable sources on history. This includes Kyokushin Karate official website & Black Belt magazine 30 years ago.

Just because you say something is wrong doesn't make it wrong. Be specific. I'm just going to keep spreading these information anyway, with my references and my conclusions.

"Among Mas Oyamas many accomplishments, he is perhaps best known for introducing tameshiwari or stone breaking into the practice of modern karate."

Sosai Masutatsu Oyama, The Founder of Kyokushin Karate - Kyokushin-kan International Honbu

"it was the kyokushinkai school under the direction of Masutatsu (Mas) Oyama which did an in-depth study into tameshiwari (the technique in which hard substances are broken with the bare hands)."

https://i.imgur.com/sFqQGhB.jpg
 
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gpseymour

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yea, fly crashes into n to your wind screen, both fly and car experience the same force,one stops dead the other hardly notices, then try it with a elk
Yeah, I think I'm also considering the effect on the occupants, which goes beyond that. Truck and car experience the same force, but truck driver and car driver do not.
 

Dirty Dog

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You are not very smart, aside from the issues with your goals, beliefs, agenda, bias.

I'm not? Oh my. The universities I attended will be so upset to hear this. :eek:

Whether I commit to "racism" or not, leave me be. None of your business whether someone is a racist or not. It's a rightful racism and not even racism anyway. But it's a rightful racism within my rights even if we call it that.

Racism is a vile stain on the fabric of human society. So, no, I do not think I will leave you be.

My research method is fine. I collect evidences, I present evidences, I draw conclusions. That's the typical research method used by all Academia of any field including history. Even though I don't have an authority as neither sports athlete nor historian, the sources I use have authority in history. As for my conclusions drawing from those reputable sources, they are rubbish.

You made a spelling error in your post. I've highlighted the correction. Hope this helps.

If it's a fact that Karate didn't rotate shoulder for punching before Mas Oyama,

But it isn't, and you know it isn't. But your view is so clouded by your racism and self-hatred that you refuse to see reality.

Just because you say something is wrong doesn't make it wrong. Be specific. I'm just going to keep spreading these fetid dingos kidneys anyway, with my references and my conclusions.

I've corrected your spelling again. Hope this helps.
 

Dirty Dog

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Hey kid... here's some video of Funakoshi, prior to Oyama. And you'll note that his shoulders are rotating. With forward strikes. And breaking. And all the things you claim Karate didn't have.

Well, actually I suspect others will notice. You're got your head buried so far up your racist delusions that you'll remain oblivious to reality.


Note that conclusively proving you wrong took all of 12 seconds on YouTube. Not even anything that I would consider research. I do research. It's much more difficult than proving you're full of it.
 
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Steven Lee

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That video is what I mean by counter-evidence. Debates on arguments are supposed to work by providing counter-evidences, not fallacies including Ad Hominem fallacy. If that video of Gichin Funakoshi was taken before the time of Mas Oyama, and if he really showed shoulder-rotation, then I cancel my previous claim that Mas Oyama taught Korean hand strike to Karate. However, it makes me wonder what Mas Oyama actually contributed to Tameshiwari/Breaking then. Also, Korean has had all those hand strikes & game concepts anyway in Gwonbeop, Sibak (different Taekkyeon which includes punching) & Charyuk/Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu (Korean had powerful Hand Breaking regardless of Karate).

Mas Oyama devised his own Breaking method when he introduced Tameshiawri/Breaking to the modern practice of Karate. Mas Oyama's book "This is Karate" talks about devising his own Breaking method. "After we had devised our own breaking methods we showed them to a very famous Chinese kempo master, who was awe-struck with admiration."

http://seinenkai.com/articles/noble/noble-oyama.html

"Among Mas Oyamas many accomplishments, he is perhaps best known for introducing tameshiwari or stone breaking into the practice of modern karate."

https://www.kyokushinkan.org/en/?page_id=2122

It is also corroborated by other sources, "it was the kyokushinkai school under the direction of Masutatsu (Mas) Oyama which did an in-depth study into tameshiwari (the technique in which hard substances are broken with the bare hands)."

https://i.imgur.com/sFqQGhB.jpg

What did Mas Oyama contribute to Karate then? What did he do differently?
 
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Steven Lee

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Rightful "racism" is my moral & legal right. In real life, you are supposed to get a restraining order instead of bothering me about my racism.

Regular Karate strikes don't rotate shoulder. That's a fact. However, if that video was published before Mas Oyama's time, then Karate has done irregular moves, rotating shoulder for punching. With this new evidence, my contents get upgraded.

Also, Korean has had all those hand strikes & game concepts anyway in Gwonbeop, Sibak (different Taekkyeon which includes punching like Nalparam, Prize Fight) & Charyuk/Kihapsul/Kiaijutsu (Korean had powerful Hand Breaking regardless of Karate).
 

Dirty Dog

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That video is what I mean by counter-evidence. Debates on arguments are supposed to work by providing counter-evidences, not fallacies including Ad Hominem fallacy. If that video of Gichin Funakoshi was taken before the time of Mas Oyama, and if he really showed shoulder-rotation, then I cancel my previous claim that Mas Oyama taught Korean hand strike to Karate.

Go watch the video, and then just post "I was wrong" and this will be over. There is no "if" in this conversation.
And stop whining.
 
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Steven Lee

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I was wrong that Karate didn't rotate shoulder in punch. I assumed Karate didn't rotate shoulder in punch cause regular Karate doesn't rotate shoulder in punching practice. (That's a good reason to assume so. Karate's practical extension being different from regular Karate is hard to imagine.)

As for the practice of Tameshiwari, Gichin Funakoshi's Tameshiwari could be from Kiaijutsu which Japan also had, or from Iron Palm's Breaking culture.

What did Mas Oyama add to Karate then? Breaking harder objects?
 

Dirty Dog

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Rightful "racism" is my moral & legal right.

Moral racism is a contradiction in terms, and something only a sick and twisted mind would claim.

In real life, you are supposed to get a restraining order instead of bothering me about my racism.

So, basically, you have no more of a clue about this than you do about Japanese martial arts, and those arts derived from them.

Regular Karate strikes don't rotate shoulder.

That statement has been proven wrong.

That's a fact.

No, it's a delusion, founded in your self-hatred.

However, if that video was published before Mas Oyama's time, then Karate has done irregular moves, rotating shoulder for punching. With this new evidence, my contents get upgraded.

The phrase you're looking for is "I was wrong." Just say it, accept it and move on. Accept your own Japanese DNA and move on.
 
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