Want to know more about Karate
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punisher73
Senior Master
There are many types of karate out there. You have the original Okinawan Karate that is broken down, but the main 4 styles are Shorin-Ryu, Goju-Ryu, Uechi-Ryu and Isshin Ryu. Isshin-Ryu is a combination of Shorin and Goju styles. Shorin-Ryu uses the longer stances similar to what you may have been used to in TSD/MDK.
The main influence of Japanese karate was Shorin-ryu, which would have heavily influenced what became "Shotokan". The main four Japanese karate styles are Shotokan, Shito-Ryu, Wado-Ryu and Goju-Ryu. Kyokushin is a blending of Shotokan and Goju styles.
Shotokan was the main influence on the Korean martial arts like TKD and TSD/MDK.
In the early days, TKD/MDK/TSD used the same katas as Shotokan. As the art morphed and became more influenced by the Korean elements, the old Japanese style katas were removed from TKD and replaced with the newer creations.
The main influence of Japanese karate was Shorin-ryu, which would have heavily influenced what became "Shotokan". The main four Japanese karate styles are Shotokan, Shito-Ryu, Wado-Ryu and Goju-Ryu. Kyokushin is a blending of Shotokan and Goju styles.
Shotokan was the main influence on the Korean martial arts like TKD and TSD/MDK.
In the early days, TKD/MDK/TSD used the same katas as Shotokan. As the art morphed and became more influenced by the Korean elements, the old Japanese style katas were removed from TKD and replaced with the newer creations.
Christopher Adamchek
Purple Belt
@punisher73 - well put
I like your post.
I learn 5 basic H forms, Pyung Ahn , and Plagwae.
Are they like the Shotokan forms?
punisher73
Senior Master
Yes and no.
the Pyung Ahn forms were the Pinan/Heian forms from Shotokan and Okinawan karate. Later, as the art started to de-emphasize its Japanese roots, the various schools were made to create a set of universal forms that they would all have in common. This was the Palgwae forms used for a while. These are still heavily influenced by the style and method of structure of Shotokan, so they still have that same "feel" to them. Later, the forms were tossed and the various organizations created their own sets of forms to use.
https://www.amazon.com/Taegeuk-Cipher-Simon-John-Oneill/dp/1409226026
This is an interesting book, the author is a TKD teacher and went back to look at those technique sequences that still match up with the old Shotokan sequences and then pulled the applications from them. For many years, the Korean instructors had no applications for the forms outside of the simple block/punch/kick ideas.
the Pyung Ahn forms were the Pinan/Heian forms from Shotokan and Okinawan karate. Later, as the art started to de-emphasize its Japanese roots, the various schools were made to create a set of universal forms that they would all have in common. This was the Palgwae forms used for a while. These are still heavily influenced by the style and method of structure of Shotokan, so they still have that same "feel" to them. Later, the forms were tossed and the various organizations created their own sets of forms to use.
https://www.amazon.com/Taegeuk-Cipher-Simon-John-Oneill/dp/1409226026
This is an interesting book, the author is a TKD teacher and went back to look at those technique sequences that still match up with the old Shotokan sequences and then pulled the applications from them. For many years, the Korean instructors had no applications for the forms outside of the simple block/punch/kick ideas.
Book is not cheap is it real that good?
Does Shotokan spar old school, what I mean is no pads, hard contact to the body, and light contact to the head.
JR 137
Grandmaster
Depends on the Shotokan school. There’s the Shotokan stereotype of light contact point fighting, which is true of many Shotokan schools. But there are Shotokan schools that go hard contact and bare knuckle. Those seem to be the exception and not the rule, but they’re definitely out there.
If you’re looking for the Pyung Ahn forms and bare knuckle sparring, one name - Kyokushin karate. Others do too, but it’s a guarantee with Kyokushin. More and more Kyokushin schools are going to protective padding, but it’s for beginners and the padding gets less and less while the contact gets heavier. Some Kyokushin schools will start off with bare knuckle full contact sparring from day one (my first school which was a Kyokushin offshoot did).
There are many Kyokushin offshoots after Mas Oyama’s (founder) death in 1994. Some got rid of most traditional kata and replaced it with their own kata the founder developed, but many kept it. Regardless of the kata, the Kyokushin roots are quite obvious to anyone who’s been around Kyokushin.
Kyokushin’s philosophy on fighting is basically two-fold; be able to hit hard and be able to take a hard hit. They’ll get you by constantly coming forward with hard offensive pressure and you won’t be able to hurt them even if you hit them with everything but the kitchen sink. At least in theory anyway
People overlook the body conditioning they do - trading blows with a partner in many drills. I loved every minute of it when I was in it. I was 18-25, so my body recovered far better than it does now at 42. I don’t know how long I’d put up with it if I started training like that again today. A year? 2 years? Karate is supposed to be a lifelong study.
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punisher73
Senior Master
Depends. I have looked through it, but don't own it. It is a good introduction and probably worth the price if you want more self-defense oriented TKD and utilize the Taeguek forms in your study and haven't been taught any of that by your instructor.
I agree with JR137, it depends on the Shotokan school. The JKA used to be known for the hard sparring and tough standards. It really will depend on each individual school.
Yokozuna514
2nd Black Belt
Good explanation JR137 there is certainly a lot of body conditioning in Kyokushin and it takes time to work the body up to that level of punishment BUT it is also important to train safely and to not injure you dojo mates to the point that they will be discouraged to come back. Conditioning the body to take shots is part of the style though so make no mistake about that. I used to come back from classes with scratches and bruises but after a few years it takes quite a bit of pounding to get the same marks on the body.Depends on the Shotokan school. There’s the Shotokan stereotype of light contact point fighting, which is true of many Shotokan schools. But there are Shotokan schools that go hard contact and bare knuckle. Those seem to be the exception and not the rule, but they’re definitely out there.
If you’re looking for the Pyung Ahn forms and bare knuckle sparring, one name - Kyokushin karate. Others do too, but it’s a guarantee with Kyokushin. More and more Kyokushin schools are going to protective padding, but it’s for beginners and the padding gets less and less while the contact gets heavier. Some Kyokushin schools will start off with bare knuckle full contact sparring from day one (my first school which was a Kyokushin offshoot did).
There are many Kyokushin offshoots after Mas Oyama’s (founder) death in 1994. Some got rid of most traditional kata and replaced it with their own kata the founder developed, but many kept it. Regardless of the kata, the Kyokushin roots are quite obvious to anyone who’s been around Kyokushin.
Kyokushin’s philosophy on fighting is basically two-fold; be able to hit hard and be able to take a hard hit. They’ll get you by constantly coming forward with hard offensive pressure and you won’t be able to hurt them even if you hit them with everything but the kitchen sink. At least in theory anyway
I loved every minute of it when I was in it. I was 18-25, so my body recovered far better than it does now at 42. I don’t know how long I’d put up with it if I started training like that again today. A year? 2 years? Karate is supposed to be a lifelong study.
Karate is a lifelong study and I firmly believe if you look at it from that standpoint, your body will become accustomed to the training. In any event, I know you enjoy where you are but if you ever felt the desire to come to the dark side again, I pretty sure your body will be able to take it given enough time on the floor.
JR 137
Grandmaster
I could do it if I had to. But at 42, I don’t hang out in the same places I used to nor hang out with the same crowd who’s looking for trouble. After a while I’d start asking myself why I’m putting myself through it again. I’d start finding excuses not to go. I love a hard hitting kumite session every now and then. I’ve got several higher ranks at the dojo who I really mix it up with. When I tested for 2nd kyu there were a few lower ranks also testing that didn’t start the contact sparring yet. They saw us going at it and were a bit shocked. Two seemed a bit scared and one was all excited about it. They didn’t realize that not everyone goes that hard nor is required to; they know how hard to hit me and I know how hard to hit them. And it’s pretty hard
My teacher did a great job of talking about knowing your partner and how hard they’re willing to go, and how you only hit as hard as you’re willing to get hit.You reminded me of a great situation one night...
A 3rd dan and I were going at it pretty good. He cornered me so I started punching fast and hard to back him up and get out of the corner. Our teacher comes over and tells me to try to use some finesse rather than brute force. I tell him I was cornered and out of options. He smiles and says “ok, that was the right thing to do; just don’t get cornered.” He turns to the sandan and asks him why he let me out. The sandan laughingly says “I didn’t let him out; his punches were hard enough to back me up.” I get serious and ask if I should lighten up, he says “sure” and buried a side kick right in my stomach once we started. I realized he was being sarcastic the hard way. Classic.
Most of our upper ranks are former Kyokushin and offshoot guys. And women. And for some reason unbeknownst me, they like beating on me
So while I’m not sparring at that knockdown level like I used to, we’re still going pretty hard. But it’s not that day in and day out and every single person level like it was back then. It’s what Kyokushin guys do when they get older but still want to go hard when they’re in the mood. Funny thing is most of them are in the mood whenever I line up across from them. We know each other’s limits.
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Jack Hwang schools spared hard in the 60' and 70's. Black Belt magazine said my GM at age 35 was competing in 1965 and 1966, but quit because he was always being disqualified for hitting too hard. He later became the head coach for the first American TKD team to go to Korea in 1973.
Man, I love that.
JR 137
Grandmaster
Sometimes, when you ask a stupid question, you deserve a stupid answer.
Or as an old professor of mine used to say “There are no stupid questions, only stupid people. Now what’s your question?”
This is how i'm learning to walk from Karate. I also have done lots of Thai boxing. Is their a benefit to moving like this in a fight or competition? I never did learn exactly the method behind the madness of walking like this.
There's 2 practical purposes and 1 training purpose that I normally tell people I teach it to. The training purpose is that it helps teach keeping a low center of gravity, fluidity and how to balance your muscles properly. The two practical purposes are being able to 'switch' between southpaw/regular stances, and as part of an entering and off-balancing technique.
IMO Kempodisciple is exactly right.
My two best teachers were great fighter from two different MA, they both would have agree with what Kempodisciple said.
I would recommend taking a look at Iain Abernethy Sensei. He has a wealth of information on his website in the form of videos, articles, books etc. Also many guest authors.
The practical application of karate | Iain Abernethy
