wado ryu kata

[lucifersdad]

just out of personal intrest i was wondering what kata are being taught at what grade in varying styles/schools.
here is a list of mine for comparison,
if anyone knows anymore wado kata can you tell me because i think my instructor is holding out on some dan grade kata,
cheers.

kata in order: (alternate names in brackets)

kyu grade:
tokioko
pinan nidan
pinan shodan
pinan sandan
pinan yodan
pinan godan
kushanku (kanku dai)
nai hanchi (tekki shodan)
chinto (gankaku)

dan grade:
basai dai
basai sho
seshan (angetsu)
rohai
jitte
jion
enpi (wansu)
nesaeshi (nijushio sho)
unsu

 

[kenmpoka]

Actually few in your list are not Wado kata. Unsu, Nijushiho (Niseishi) and Bassai-Sho were not originally part of the Wado canon. You are missing Naihanchi (tekki) Nidan and Sandan. Oh btw its Seishan (Hangetsu).

:asian:

 

[lucifersdad]

thanks for the info,
is tekki nidan etc. part of the wado system as no clubs in the uk teach them as part of wad ryu, i've only seen them in shotokan schools?

 

[kenmpoka]

Ohtsuka, took with him all the original kata that Funakoshi taught at the time. 15 plus three Taikyoku plus Rohai (an older version) in some schools.
5 Pinans, 3 Naihanchi, Jutte, Jion, Enpi, Gankaku, Seishan, Bassai and Kanku. Most schools now days only teach 1 Taikyoku, sometimes under the name of Kihon no Kata.
:asian:

 

[cas]

hello all,

Following is a part of the text on the history of wado on sensei ohgami's website:
http://www.hogia.net/karate/karate/history.htm

1970 ’Karatedo Vol.1’ by Ohtsuka was published. He presents 9 Wadoryu Katas (Pinan-5, Naifanchi, Seishan, Kushanku and Chinto). He declared in his book that Wadokai had these 9 Katas and nothing more. If you study a Kata deeply and carefully, then 9 Katas are already very many. That is my impression. 9 Wadoryu Katas were finally standardized by this book.


But especially in Europe some instructors taught other Katas (Bassai, Jion, Jitte, Niseishi and Rohai) though they were not official in Wadokai. Maybe because more Katas were needed considering the competitive situation against other styles. But this caused a sort of turbulence in Wado Katas. In some FEW competitions we could see for example four or five different Bassai Katas. Today Wadokai has standardized these Katas.

Wadoryu Katas and the influence

Pinan Shodan, Nidan, Sandan, Yondan, Godan
(Ohtsuka studied Pinan Katas from Funakoshi - Funakoshi was called Pinan Sensei in Tokyo, but rearranged after Mabuni and some idea from Shindo Yoshinryu.) Funakoshi Mabuni
Naifanchi
(Ohtsuka says that he has taken Motobus Naifanchi. But there is a slight difference from Motobus Naifanchi.)
Motobu
Seishan
(It is obvious that Ohtsuka has taken Shotokan Seishan (today Hangetsu). In no other style Seishan is performed in this way.)
Funakoshi
Kushanku Funakoshi Mabuni
Chinto
(Both Kushanku and Chinto are similar in Shitoryu and Shotokan. These should be classified as Itosu Kushanku and Itosu Chinto.) Funakoshi Mabuni
Bassai
(Bassai Kata of Shitoryu, Shotokan and Wadoryu are in the same stream - Itosu Bassai. But Wado Bassai is a direct heritage from Shotokan.)
Funakoshi
Jion, Jitte
(Jitte, Jion and Jiin seem to be Katas of similar type. These Katas in Shitoryu and Shotokan are similar.)
Funakoshi Mabuni
Niseishi
(Ohtsuka may have studied Niseishi from Funakoshi first, but adjusted later to Shitoryu way.) Mabuni
Rohai
(This is Itosu Rohai. Wado Rohai is Rohai Shodan, while Shotokan Meikyo is Rohai Nidan.) Mabuni
Wanshu
(It is probable that Ohtuska did not make much change in this Kata from Funakoshi.)
Funakoshi

Hope this helps,

Casper Baar

 

[lucifersdad]

thanks again for the info,
just one question, this may sound stupid but anyway,
i have very limited knowlege on this subjest so can anyone help, what are the main differances between wado ryu and wado kai?

i know wado kai is an offshoot of wado ryu, and newer but as for that im pretty much lost.
anyhelp on the subject would greatly be appreciated

thanks in advance.

 

[cas]

This is a question that will get you different answers depending on who you ask.
Try this link:
http://www.wadoworld.com/history/orgtimel/orgtimelfr.html
If you are interested in finding an answer to this question listen to stories from all sides.
I.m.o. this doesn't really matter for me in learning wado. Curriculi may vary a bit between organisations but they also vary between countries and dojo's within one organisation. Again i.m.o. this is more a question of politics then of techniques. Beware of politics!

have a nice weekend,

Casper Baar

 

[lucifersdad]

again thanks for the info, im starting to beleive that my knowledge is a lot less than i thought! but hey, surely this is the first step to actually learning something.......:asian:

 

[Jill666]

Some great info! I study Kenpo, so acquired the below later-

I have been taught Bassai Dai, Konku Dai, Tekki Shodan, and Itosu Rohai Shodan and Sandan. I knew these to be Karate forms.

My understanding is that Bassai, Konku, Tekki are traditional Wado-Ryu and taught by Funakoshi, whereas the Rohai kata were from Itosu?

I also was told that Itosu developed Bassai Sho and Konku Sho derived from Bassai Dai and Konku Dai.

The men I have studied with in Kyusho have Tekki Sodan-Sandan, I just have learned Shodan so far. They told me origionally the Tekki were one kata, later broken up for learning.

Comments? Corrections?

 

[cas]

Jill,

Before continueing in any further replies I should say that I am just a third kyu and it's only recently that I've invested in my interest in wado, karate and martial arts history. I am by no means very knowledgeable on the subject, most information I have I found on the internet and forums like these.
Wado is a young style and I don't think there are kata's in wado that originated from wado, if that is what you meant. Offcourse there is a typical wado performance of the kata. Funakoshi never taught wado kata's. Funakoshi called his style Shotokan, Ohtsuka first learnt karate from Funakoshi. Funakoshi was a student of Itosu.
I do not know if your kenpo style has any wado influences, but I don't think so ask/ look around see if you can find a lineage of teachers. Funakoshi changed the names of some of the kata's Ohtsuka changed these back again. The names you mention are the "Funakoshi-names".

Excuses for any bad english

have a nice week,

Casper Baar
the Netherlands

 

[Jill666]

Actually, your English is very good. (much better than my Dutch, for instance). I have always had difficulty learning from the written word, whareas if you demonstrate physically or just tell me verbally I can retain information.

Ok, so here goes- Itosu taught traditional Shotokan Karate. His student, Funakoshi changed some names but continued teaching the Shotokan style. (These names I know, am just getting to learn the parts they played in MA history). Otsuka learned from Funakoshi, then branched off and pioneered Wadoryu?

My Kenpo style has mainly shaolin influences. I am simply interested in the history of these forms I have recently been learning. We have also learned Tai Chi, GoJu Ryu and WeiJi Ryu forms (my spelling is probably wrong).

It is helpful to know that the Karate forms I mentioned are taught to me under the Funakoshi names & presumably that Shotokan style.

Thanks for your time in replying- the fact that you are third kyu does not make your information invalid. :asian:

 

[Mike Clarke]

Hi Jill,

About Funakoshi sensei learning Shotokan from Itosu sensei?
The name 'Shotokan' comes from the first dojo Funakoshi sensei had in mainland Japan after his move there from Okinawa.
Shoto was his 'pen-name' used when he wrote poetry, Kan simply means 'building/hall'. So the karate being taught at Funakoshi sensei's dojo became known to his students and others as the 'Shotokan [style] of karatedo'.
Funakoshi sensei himself was dead set against karate being split in to 'styles'. To him and other Okinawans of his generation, karate was karate. It was the Japanese who wanted to have styles. The first Okinawan karate to have a style name was in fact Goju-ryu. Again this was at the insistance of the Butokukai who were at the time the governing body for martial arts in Japan.
Itosu sensei taught Shuri-te [Shuri hand], in other words, the fighting tradition found in the [then] Okinawan capital, Shuri.
Goju-ryu and Uechi-ryu are from the Naha-te, the kind of fighting found in Naha. There was also Tomari-te from the port district of Tomari [Bassai, Rohai etc]
Kata names were changed to rid them of their Chinese origins and so be better accepted amongst the very anti-Chinese feelings being held in Japan at the time.
Hope you don't think I'm nit pick'in here, I'm just trying to help

Happy punching,
Mike.

 

[cas]

Since we're talking kata history, perhaps someone can help me with this.
From what I've read Funakoshi sensei didn't teach bunkai the way it is taught in for instance Goju-ryu (practicing different kata applications with a partner)
I'm particularly interested in grappling applications in the kata's. Ohstuka sensei brought some grappling applications into wado from Shindo Yoshin jujutsu, Funakoshi sensei was against mixing karate with jujutsu. From what I understand there are many grappling applications to kata taught in Okinawan styles. My questions are:
Why didn't Funakoshi teach these applications?
Did Funakoshi sensei know these applications well enough to teach them?
Did Ankoh Itosu teach these applications?
Is there such a thing as lineage in bunkai (I've learnt this from my teacher who learnt it from.. back to a founder of a style?

Just to tell you some of the things I've heard/ read.
The bunkai is taken out of karate in the do-ification/ to make it better fit for the japanese.
Also I've read somewhere that Funakoshi sensei didn't have much grappling skills.

Any insights on this matter is appreciated.

thanks,

Casper

 

[lucifersdad]

as far as i know wado was origionally a style of jujutsu( or so i was told, but dont take that as gospal) and therefore there are many grappling applications, for example:-
first move of tokiyoko, gedan barai or arm bar?
9th move of tokiyoko, turn and block or taiatoshi?
1st move of chinto, jujiuke jodan or choke hold?

just a couple of basic moves that i show to some of my students that think kata isnt worth learning, theres grappling applications for nearly everymove of the kata we do.
when i was first taught kata it was "this is a block" "this is a punch" but when i got my dan grade i was seen has having done my apprentaship and that i was ready to learn and i was "guided" to find most of these for myself with a few guiding pointers from my shihan.
just have a play, it totally changed my veiw of kata and improved my overall performance of them

 

[Mike Clarke]

Cas,
As far as I'm aware there is no such thing as 'bunkai linage'.
As ones understanding of a kata deepens, so ones ability to make it work changes. Bunkai are just training exercises made up so one can grasp some sense of 'feeling' for the ideas encoded in the kata. They are not set on bronze!
As for your questions regarding Funakoshi sensei, Unless there is someone here who knew the man and had conversations with him about his karate, I can't see how you will get answers to your questions that is not simply speculation?
Kata are like a 'boxed set' of ideas for you to train with when you don't have a partner to train with. The deeper you understand them, the more you see in them.
Mike.

 

[Jill666]

That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for- keep it coming.

:asian:

 

[lucifersdad]

you could do with checking with the DSI (dragon society international) but i have seen the first 2 moves of tokiyoko to be a pressure point knock out. i dont go for those much myself because i dont know enough about it but it looked quite impressive.

a couple more bunkai for you,
second move of pinan godan- reverse punch or osotogari?
second move of pinan sandan- double block or hammer lock?
last move of pinan yodan- stamp and push or hip throw?(kind of)

try them out and tell me what you think

 

[cas]

Thank you for the provided information.
Some of my questions are answered others might never be.

Lucifersdad: Ohstuka sensei had a teachers license in Shindo Yoshin ryu Jujitsu, this is where the jujitsu applications in wado come from. Some of the current wadoka's were also schooled in this jujitsu style by him (Sensei Ohstuka's son is the only one I can think of right now but I think there are more). They could use their specific jujutsu knowledge to theach bunkai. However to say that this is the reason there are grappling applications is wrong, the kata existed long before anyone from the japanese main islands (such as Ohtsuka sensei) practised them.
If you are interested in wado history check out the other information given on Ohgami senseis site. Tim Evans also has good info on his site. http://www.wadoryu.org.uk/

Much of the bunkai's grappling applications shown today come from other systems, mostly judo and jujitsu. This seems to depend on the systems the sensei or shihan knows. Not that I object to this. It just makes me wonder if these grappling applications were once trained as a intregal part of karate or if they were always taken from an outside art such as Okinawan wrestling. Offcourse you can show a grappling application in kata but unless you are trained in grappling (like for instance a judoka trains) you aren't very likely to use to such applications in a fight.


casper

 

[Liam Digby]

As new guy to this discussion group I thought I might be able to add something to this discussion, particularly as Casper and Lucifersdad both want to talk about Wado karate.

Specifically to Lucifersdad;
I saw an article by someone in the DSI in UK magazine "Traditional Karate" in which the author talked about the practicing of the Kihon Gumites and how he'd never seen anyone be able to make them work! Now as the Kihon Gumites, as far as I understand them, relate to the kata applications that's quite an admission!

From the various Wado Senseis I've trained under the working of applications which are extracted from the kata are based mostly upon principles of body movement and from there all kinds of possibilities open out, doesn't get you "stuck in a mold" as one of my Senseis often says.

To Casper,
Yes I agree, the bunkai stuff does appear to come from outside of people's system. There's a book by Iain Abernethy all about this kind of bunkai, but it is hardly an endorsment of the Wado or Shotokan he learned that he felt a need to add all of this to it. Afterall, from my limited experience I can see that Wado has close-up and grappling skills aplenty, lots of chokes and takedowns, but they are not the most difficult part of the system, the most difficult parts are the evasions, unbalancing of the opponent and the angles and distances. Mr Abernethy makes no mention of those in his book.

Liam

 

[cas]

Hi Liam,

As far as I know the kihon kumite and ohyo kumite of Ohtsuka sensei are not related to the karate kata in origin. Some moves have been taken directly from Yoshin ryu jiu-jutsu some of the principles are also found in kendo and seem to come from there.
I think these yakusoku kumites are very (mainland) japanese and the kata's are Okinawan in origin.
Just to make sure we are talking about the same thing, does this look familiar? http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~martg/
In alot of the kihon kumites the first defensive (nagashi uke) move puts you in a position where you leave your (lower) body open to an attack. This is a position you also find yourself in in some of the first moves of the pinan kata's (shodan and yondan)what I'm trying to find out is if it's possible to follow up with a kihon move from a pinan stance (just making up some bunkai).
I'm studying the first five kihon and the first three ohyo's, this will probably keep me busy the next couple a' years.

Casper