Video about the science of stretching

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I found this video to be interesting, confirming things I already thought:
- Stretching to increase flexibility is counter-productive before a workout, and leads to being weaker for the workout.
- The best warm-up is ...warming up!
- Kids can develop flexibility much quicker than adults
- For adults, flexibility takes time. "Do the splits in 30 days!" is not realistic for the vast majority of adults. I've always looked at doing the splits like bench-pressing 250 pounds. Maybe with training most men can do it, but how quickly you can do it varies by person, and it takes time to build the muscle (although initial gains are very quick as the body learns the exericse let alone builds muscle).

 

[Gnarlie]

An interesting watch. A lot of it confirmed my suspicions, but there are definitely some hidden gems in there contradicting traditional martial arts stretches, for example pulling the toes back when attempting to stretch the hamstrings. Interesting, thank you.

Gnarlie

 

[ATC]

I took a Kinesiology course back in 89 that taught all the same stuff. I always warm up before stretching and any gymnast or dancer will always point the toes when stretching. I have only seen Martial Artist, and other "A" sport, football, basketball and so on, that have you pull the toes back. Good to finally see someone state what I had been taught.

 

[ACJ]

I've found that current literature doesn't support the idea of an increase in muscle length being the main factor behind an increase in muscle extensibility, (thus joint range of motion, thus flexibility). Rather a neurological cause such a change in the sensory perception of the stretch.

Stretching to increase flexibility is counter-productive before a workout, and leads to being weaker for the workout.

As alluded to in the video, this will only occur with prolonged static stretching, and the effects are suggested by the literature to be as transient as the muscle lengthening effects of stretching. Furthermore various modalities of stretching can be utilised to increase performance in a subsequent exercise, where that exercise's performance is dependant on certain ranges of motion.

 

[andyjeffries]

An interesting watch. A lot of it confirmed my suspicions, but there are definitely some hidden gems in there contradicting traditional martial arts stretches, for example pulling the toes back when attempting to stretch the hamstrings. Interesting, thank you.

We've always done this too (toes pulled back). Recently (a year ago when I took over the club) I stopped the class doing static stretching in the warm-up, switching to a purely dynamic warm-up and it seems to be working a lot better. We're about to add in some more stretching at the end of class (along with a Tabata finisher) so I'll make sure we do them toes pointed.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

...Recently (a year ago when I took over the club) I stopped the class doing static stretching in the warm-up, switching to a purely dynamic warm-up ...

How much do you push students versus letting them go at their own pace? My pet peeve with dynamic stretching in class is instructors telling students to go higher and higher, after say only 3 kicks / leg rises. I'd rather start mid-level and slowly work up to see how it feels.

 

[granfire]

I took a Kinesiology course back in 89 that taught all the same stuff. I always warm up before stretching and any gymnast or dancer will always point the toes when stretching. I have only seen Martial Artist, and other "A" sport, football, basketball and so on, that have you pull the toes back. Good to finally see someone state what I had been taught.

Dancers and gymnasts perform with pointed toes...it stands to reason that is why they point them during stretches, no?

 

[andyjeffries]

How much do you push students versus letting them go at their own pace? My pet peeve with dynamic stretching in class is instructors telling students to go higher and higher, after say only 3 kicks / leg rises. I'd rather start mid-level and slowly work up to see how it feels.

I generally after about 10 kicks each side say "you should be working them up higher now towards your maximal stretch". That way I'm not being too pushy (if people aren't ready) and it reminds the lazy ones not to just maintain their comfortable height.

 

[ETinCYQX]

This is something I always wondered about.

When I lift weights, I don't stretch first or do any kind of warm up except multiple reps at light weight. Stands to reason that taekwondo is the best warmup for taekwondo, no?

 

[ACJ]

This is something I always wondered about.

When I lift weights, I don't stretch first or do any kind of warm up except multiple reps at light weight. Stands to reason that taekwondo is the best warmup for taekwondo, no?

Essentially, yes. Do "lighter" versions of the actions you are going to do, in the case of kicks this usually means reducing height and/or reducing intensity. This can take the form of dedicated dynamic stretching drills. Or it can take the form of a technique drill that happens to have reduced intensity that slowly escalates.

While this is probably the most effective method as a warmup, a similarly effective warm up that also doubles as a strengthening and flexibility improving session, is one that involves weighted dynamic rom and isometric stretches.

 

[Rumy73]

So what would you say to people who do yoga, which is all stretching? The video is interesting but a bit pseudo science. Blood flow is key to a good stretch -- that is science. There are different paths to achieve this end. A quick jog. Static stretches while massaging the muscle (something I learned from a 70 year old Chinese kung fu master) and a whole array of possibilities. If you find a method that works for you, great! The idea about limiting the means, when in fact many exist, is silly.

 

[ETinCYQX]

So what would you say to people who do yoga, which is all stretching? The video is interesting but a bit pseudo science. Blood flow is key to a good stretch -- that is science. There are different paths to achieve this end. A quick jog. Static stretches while massaging the muscle (something I learned from a 70 year old Chinese kung fu master) and a whole array of possibilities. If you find a method that works for you, great! The idea about limiting the means, when in fact many exist, is silly.

From a kinesiology standpoint yoga movements tend to be more mobility based than flexibility based. Mobility drills are much better than static stretches as a warmup or GPP work.

I don't subscribe to the idea that splits are necessary for good, hard, high kicks. I think mobility is, and also a lot of practice doing good, hard, high kicks.

 

[Rumy73]

From a kinesiology standpoint yoga movements tend to be more mobility based than flexibility based. Mobility drills are much better than static stretches as a warmup or GPP work.

I don't subscribe to the idea that splits are necessary for good, hard, high kicks. I think mobility is, and also a lot of practice doing good, hard, high kicks.

Kinesiology is pseudoscience.

 

[ETinCYQX]

Kinesiology is pseudoscience.

Even if that's true, yoga is still mobility based, not flexibility based. There might be one or two positions in an hour long class that I would call a stretch in the traditional sense and I am rather inflexible for a TKD bb. Much more work on things like hip and shoulder mobility which are vastly more important for anyone, from athlete to sedentary senior citizen.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Stands to reason that taekwondo is the best warmup for taekwondo, no?

Interesting. This is, almost verbatim, what Gen. Choi said at a training session my instructor was at in the mid 1980s.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Rumy73]

Even if that's true, yoga is still mobility based, not flexibility based. There might be one or two positions in an hour long class that I would call a stretch in the traditional sense and I am rather inflexible for a TKD bb. Much more work on things like hip and shoulder mobility which are vastly more important for anyone, from athlete to sedentary senior citizen.

Actually you are half right. Yoga is most certainly flexibility based. Stretching without good blood flow is counterproductive. Massage and yoga go hand in hand. When it comes to tkd warm ups, most do it the way it was taught to them -- generally poorly informed about the whole affair. There is also almost an obsessive fix on doing splits of some kind in tkd warm ups. While important, gaining flexibility on the trunk is overlooked. Having the latter is how my wife and son can pull their body forward while having each leg spread out. I learned this and through stretch mixed with massage, as i did the move, increased my ability to come forward.

 

[ETinCYQX]

Actually you are half right. Yoga is most certainly flexibility based. Stretching without good blood flow is counterproductive. Massage and yoga go hand in hand. When it comes to tkd warm ups, most do it the way it was taught to them -- generally poorly informed about the whole affair. There is also almost an obsessive fix on doing splits of some kind in tkd warm ups. While important, gaining flexibility on the trunk is overlooked. Having the latter is how my wife and son can pull their body forward while having each leg spread out. I learned this and through stretch mixed with massage, as i did the move, increased my ability to come forward.

What's your background in this type of science? Can't be kinesiology because that's "pseudoscience"

I just left a yoga class. No stretching, plenty of mobility work though. I gave up on doing the splits and I'm a much better and healthier athlete for it.

 

[Rumy73]

What's your background in this type of science? Can't be kinesiology because that's "pseudoscience"

I just left a yoga class. No stretching, plenty of mobility work though. I gave up on doing the splits and I'm a much better and healthier athlete for it.

My point is that flexibility and mobility are allied.

 

[ETinCYQX]

I didn't intend to challenge you, I've just never heard the kinesiology=pseudoscience before and was hoping to learn something.

Flexibility and mobility are allied, definitely, in that a minimum amount of flexibility is a prerequisite to good mobility, but splits and a good head kick aren't as tied to each other as most think IMHO.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I gave up on doing the splits and I'm a much better and healthier athlete for it.

I find that to be an interesting statement. Do you mean that you were injuring yourself when trying to stretch for the splits? Is "happier" due in part to being now able to meet your goals?