Verbal Martial arts?

[still learning]

Hello, Most martial arts teach about "NOT GETTING INTO A FIGHT". There is no formal classes on Verbal Disfusing?

There are very little lessons on "VERBAL DISFUSING". There are many books on this topic.

Do you feel we can open a new area and have discussions on how to"s?

What does you school does? ....We have discussions time to time and on what is happen in our world (violence on the news). What would we do and should do? ...But no real formal excercises?

Verbal Judo is OK...NOT enough material....WE need drills and proper languages or words to use?


Aloha ( sign language should be added here...or body language?)

 

[MA-Caver]

There are several books on how to deal with people. The all time champ has to be "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie.
But I've seen other titles about Verbal-Fu or some other name akin to that.
Like Bugs Bunny, I've double talked my way out of a lot more potential fights than I've actually been in.
One of the key things is definitely DO NOT show that you're intimidated by them or their anger and DO NOT let their anger bring rise to yours (i.e. shouting contest). Let them shout, rant, rave all they want.. it's they who are pissed off right?... whatever it may be about. Sometimes shouting is a way to cover up fear. Flathead Indians of olden days would do that. Lots of folks do today. They pretend they're angry but they're scared outta their minds.
You watch LEO's dealing with irate folks and rarely you see them raising their voices. Maybe it's because the LEOs know that any crap gets started somebody is going to jail and it ain't them... or they know that by simply talking and letting the person "burn out" and eventually (if no physical moves are made or they don't calm down as quickly as they are "requested") things get smoothed over.
You may not always defuse by just talking but you can defuse by listening. Assertive talking/listening helps as well.
Aloha indeed! Learning to read body language also helps in defusing.

 

[still learning]

Hello, One of the things we tell our students is:

If someone is shouting, yellling,calling you names, bad words,anger, and trying to get you MAD?

If you get MAD..and copy them? ....YOU LOSE! You must remain silent, calm as possible....walk away. Body langauge should show NO emotions or anger or any fighting stance.

Calm voice, saying "sorrying" and I am not looking for any trouble.....or what ever that will not esclate the situtions.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------This is where "VERBAL" AND BODY LANGUAGE..training can play a role for Martial artist.

There must be words and body languages that can be taught to all martial artist?

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Disclpine one self? means remaining calm and NO over reacting!

Aloha ,

 

[tellner]

Still Learning has a point. Saying "There are books about that" is like saying "There are books about martial arts". You would never say "Read a book about martial arts and you'll have all the skills you'll ever need." There has to be training under someone who can make it work. And for all the talk about "fighting without fighting" and the rest there's practically nobody out there actually teaching this stuff beyond some bland, useless platitudes. A lot of police officers think highly of the Verbal Judo program. I've heard of a couple conflict resolution and hostage/siege negotiators who have formal training programs but couldn't tell you who. If you want a book Marc MacYoung's The Professional's Guide To Ending Violence Quickly has some good stuff.

 

[Xue Sheng]

13 years in security in colleges, hospitals and for the state gave me a lot of on the job training.

 

[tellner]

Someone who grows up in a kitchen will learn to cook. Someone who has been fighting since he could pick up both ends of the AK-47 will know how to fight. Where can one find a program to learn that sort of thing in an instructional setting? The places are much to few and way too far in between.

 

[Drac]

A lot of police officers think highly of the Verbal Judo program.

Yeah I have heard of Verbal Judo and Tongue-Fu.. Personally I find them a waste..Observation is the key..Keep your eyes open, it has kept me alive 20 years on the streets and a number of years in nightclubs...Too often I have seen the person attempting to play the peace maker or start a dialog get hit first...My 2 cents worth..OK, let the name calling and negative comments commence.

 

[jks9199]

Yeah I have heard of Verbal Judo and Tongue-Fu.. Personally I find them a waste..Observation is the key..Keep your eyes open, it has kept me alive 20 years on the streets and a number of years in nightclubs...Too often I have seen the person attempting to play the peace maker or start a dialog get hit first...My 2 cents worth..OK, let the name calling and negative comments commence.

From my experience, George Thompson's Verbal Judo program does have a place, especially in today's world. Just like lots of rookies today have never been in a serious fight (or, in a frightening number of cases, even played contact sports!), they also don't have some of the interpersonal skills required. If you already know how to talk to someone, and how to calm them down -- you probably don't need Verbal Judo, though it's got a few useful tricks. But, for those who don't -- it's one reasonably effective way to acquire the skills. For those who do... Well, they're the ones who nicknamed it "Gerbal Voodoo." One note -- there's a huge difference between getting trained by someone properly instructed to teach it and who believes in it, and getting someone reading the talking points who doesn't really trust it.

I'm always open to new communication training; I'm not blessed with a natural gift of gab, so I have to work at it, whether it's defusing a situation or conducting an interview.

 

[Drac]

From my experience, George Thompson's Verbal Judo program does have a place, especially in today's world. Just like lots of rookies today have never been in a serious fight (or, in a frightening number of cases, even played contact sports!), they also don't have some of the interpersonal skills required. If you already know how to talk to someone, and how to calm them down -- you probably don't need Verbal Judo, though it's got a few useful tricks. But, for those who don't -- it's one reasonably effective way to acquire the skills. For those who do... Well, they're the ones who nicknamed it "Gerbal Voodoo." One note -- there's a huge difference between getting trained by someone properly instructed to teach it and who believes in it, and getting someone reading the talking points who doesn't really trust it.

You are correct..I have noticed that the newer rookies lack communication skills..My theatrical backround has given me the ability to talk and listen so I'm covered there.." Gerbal Voodoo" I'm gonna use that...

 

[Carol]

You are correct..I have noticed that the newer rookies lack communication skills...

Their Tongue-Fu's no good

 

[andras]

Dealing with People You Can't Stand: How to Bring Out the Best in People at Their Worst by Dr. Rick Brinkman and Dr. Rick Kirschner is an excellent read.

While they don't have "drills", they do have plenty of stories covering real-life examples of the techniques.

The techniques they propose are completely in line with core aikido principles, both the spiritual and the physical.

Incidentally, the techniques work in personal life, the corporate world and even in prisons.

I've been recommending this book ever since I ran across it in the mid-90's. 100% of the people who have picked it up on my recommendation have come back to me and told me it was an awesome book. Many tell me it's the best book they've read.

 

[andras]

These folks are setting up aikido dojos to deal with the social issues of conflict as well as martial arts.

http://www.aiki-extensions.org/projectsPeacedojos.asp

 

[still learning]

Hello, The point is this?....Verbal training or language including body language is takes LEARNING....does not come natural for most people!

How to deal or say the right right words and tones is NOT taught in most martial art schools or business classes too.

High Schools and Colleges do not deal with this topic too! Most of this learning is gain from Private Seminars!

Dale Carnegeia books are excellant materials....it needs to be taught to ALL people.

Martial arts should have FORMAL LESSIONS in dealing with people (especially anger ones).

Most Teachers (are not skill in this area). Lets share our ideas and try to expand this as a major part of learning the martial arts? ....fighting without fighting? or descalations of any situtions?

Isn't this what Martial arts is about? ...build skills and strenght...yet NOT use those martial arts tools unless...NO choice?

Self-development? ....can be more? than learning to fight back?

Aloha, (look at the leaders of the world...many have NO skills in handleing people or situtions)

 

[andras]

Hello, The point is this?....Verbal training or language including body language is takes LEARNING....does not come natural for most people!

I absolutely agree with you!

How to deal or say the right right words and tones is NOT taught in most martial art schools or business classes too.

High Schools and Colleges do not deal with this topic too! Most of this learning is gain from Private Seminars!

Dale Carnegeia books are excellant materials....it needs to be taught to ALL people.

Martial arts should have FORMAL LESSIONS in dealing with people (especially anger ones).

Most Teachers (are not skill in this area).

I agree with you on this also.

Lets share our ideas and try to expand this as a major part of learning the martial arts? ....fighting without fighting? or descalations of any situtions?

Well, you just asked "Hello, The point is this?"

I thought sharing an excellent book that gives good examples would be a useful way of sharing. Particularly for someone who is interested enough in the topic to write up some exercises for us to try out... (hint).

From what I have been reading over the last few days, the Peace Dojos I provided a link for may be doing exactly what you are asking for. Someone interested enough in preparing or using classes might be motivated to contact them about it. (another hint!)

On a personal note, I'm moving to Ethiopia in a month and hope to visit the Awassa Peace Dojo as soon as I can get there. The high schools in the capital, Addis Ababa, are in the process of adopting their aikido training methods as a way to teach conflict resolution, so it appears they might be a good source of ideas/training materials.

Isn't this what Martial arts is about? ...build skills and strenght...yet NOT use those martial arts tools unless...NO choice?

Self-development? ....can be more? than learning to fight back?

The Awassa Peace Dojo teaches street kids, most of whom lost both their parents to hiv/aids. Most of them are homeless. They have a real need to be able to defend themselves, and an equal need to learn the social and character skills that would not only help them avoid a fight, but to succeed in life against all the odds.

I suggest you look into it and see if they can provide what you are looking for.

One of life's most important lessons is to learn that you can only control your own actions, you can only influence the actions of others. There is no point in wasting time and energy fussing about it, it's just the way the world works.

You've sowed some seeds for your ideas. They might germinate in somenone's heart and motivate them to produce the type of lessons you want. Then again, they might not. That's the limitations of influence.

If you want lessons like that bad enough, you may just have to develop them yourself. Years ago, I was working on a technical book that covered a software product I used every day at work. Someone mentioned to me that they had always wanted to write a book about that product, but that they didn't know enough about it. My response surprised them. "Neither do I, but I expect to by the time I've finished writing it!"

So get to work!

 

[still learning]

Hello, Thank-you. Now to get started?

Aloha

 

[SilatFan]

www.senshido.com


Excellent work is demonstrated on their videos in the area of verbal de-escalation paired with self defense tactics.

 

[bluekey88]

As a young therapist in training, I came across a great book called Helping Skills: Facilitating Exploration, Insight, and Action by Clara Hill and Karen O'Brien.

This book identifies the core verbal skills of th etherapist, what they do, how to use then and even has a series of excercises designed to practice and gain masteryu in the various skills. These are the core techniques one would need to do to deescalate a situation. Possibly in conjunction with something like the Verbal Judo system would make a good start.

Peace,
Erik

 

[andras]

Hello, Thank-you. Now to get started?

Aloha

I've been reading the newsletters at the aiki extensions website I mentioned earlier: http://www.aiki-extensions.org

They mention specific locations where you can get the types of classes you are interested in. They also reference papers/articles/books that, by title at least, are spot on target.

I suggest you start looking there. Maybe you'll be lucky and one of those locations will be just down the road. (Then you can try it out and report back to us about it!)

 

[still learning]

Hello, Thank-you Andras!

I have being talking to a Qiqong master at least once aweek (we both go the same store to service).

He always mention...stand straight and think only of good things....and practice good things to everyone....you life will automatic be good to you!

Keep this process simple and clear.

Most people will go thru life NEVER NEEDING TO USE the "martial arts", physcal part.

Verbal and body language training will only add to your over all martial art skills. Something many people need to learn.

In most situtions...the aggressor will say many bad things to you to get you MAD or Angery..if they get you Mad at them? ....they win!

Best to be calm...and leave (watch your body langauge too?)

Aloha and Thank-you again,

 

[myusername]

De-esculation is a part of my job as I am a trained mental health nurse who has worked in secure units and on challenging behaviour wards. I am currently working on an inpatient drug and alcohol detox ward. I find it mainly boils down to common sense at the end of the day. I will share a few techniques that I use that help me diffuse situations. You probably do these things anyway so I hope not to make people feel patronised.

You need to roll with and absorb the aggression. Aggression met with aggression will be a win-lose situation for one of you. As people have said remain calm. It's easier said than done as the adrenaline kicks in and you feel the butterflies in your stomach, your heart starts pounding and you may get a dry mouth and words do not always come easy. There is nothing wrong or abnormal about these feelings its just your body preparing for the fight or flight response. So I suppose it's better to think of it as pretending to be calm. You will be surprised that if you act calm and keep your tone of voice at a steady level it will naturally keep you feeling calmer. Remember that the angry person is not a mind reader.

Be aware of body language and distance. Common sense dictates that you need to keep as much distance between you and the angry person as possible. With distance you are able to maintain more open and non aggressive body postures. Keep your hand gestures to a minimum and keep your palms open. I would suggest you stand with one foot slightly back so you are not standing square on with the angry person. Personally I wouldn't get into any fighting stances as that would antagonise an already aggressive individual.

Something people need to be aware of when remaining calm is that a non emotional response will potentially infuriate the individual and make them much angrier! Being calm is not the same as showing no emotion what so ever! If that person is angry with you they will feel justified in their anger and will feel the need to have their anger heard. Express sincere apologies and VALIDATE their feelings. If you have done something that has offended them agree with them that you were in the wrong and apologise for it. Tell them that in their situation you would be feeling just as p**sed off and that you are sorry. Keep your tone of voice at a nice steady level avoiding the temptation to raise it in defence but make sure that it conveys true meanings and feelings of sincerity. Do not appear emotionless!

Your facial expression should be sincere (imagine you have been caught cheating on your wife and you are trying to patch up your marriage! That is the face you should be pulling!). Do not smile, do not use humour. The persons anger is not a laughing matter.

Eye contact is important. Too much is aggressive and too little is too passive and is inviting attack so it is tricky to get this right especially when the adrenaline is kicking in. To maintain normal eye contact it can be helpful to look at the point between the eyebrows of the individual and at the top of their nose. Literally between the eyes. The person will still feel that you are looking at them when you are talking to them and it allows you to avoid their glare and thus preventing you naturally lingering longer than you normally would.

Be aware of ego and the concept of "losing face". If the angry person has an audience it really changes the dynamic of the interaction and puts the angry person in a position where they have a lot to lose. You do not want to make an angry person look foolish. In a clinical situation I often ask other patients to leave or request the discussion take place in another room. This is not appropriate for outside in the real world.

However, I have had the misfortune to have had people be angry at me outside in the real world. Main occassions have been as a result of my antagonistic friends winding some guy up! I find appealing to that persons vanity and ego helpful especially if they have friends watching! Tell them that you have no desire what so ever to fight them as they will win! VALIDATE and APOLOGISE. (In my situation I agreed with them that my friend was an idiot and he was just larging it and I'll take him home!). Say what ever you need to say to make the angry person feel that shouting at you was enough. Macho attitudes and big egos are for the insecure, don't be afraid of backing down or what others think. Use your brain.

After an altercation that you have diffused remember that adrenaline stays in the body for a full 90 minutes! I suggest staying well clear of that individual as its very easy for them to flip again in those 90mins! Get out and go somewhere else!

All said and done though there will be people out there who are just determined to hurt you despite your best efforts. I certainly have met them in the clinical situation and I know that there are violent thugs out in the street. Trust your hunches and instincts- if it doesn't feel right get out of the situation as quickly as possible. Be aware of your escape routes. At work I have my personal alarm for those situations in the street I will have my martial arts and fast running legs. Deep down you will know whether you did everything you could do to prevent the situation.

Hope this helps some people out there and wasn't too patronising! Feel free to disagree with any points. It is just what has worked for me in the past.

Cheers Mark