MT Senior Moderator
Lifetime Supporting Member
- Apr 19, 2007
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- Lives in Texas
The funny thing about kata is that the "surface" is a pretty unique thing. It's personal. I dance throughout my house every day but I'm not sure if I can muster this kind of performance art. So it's never really fair to dismiss any kind of routine, some of these people train like crazy, and deserve the gold they're given.Your comment definitely sums it up very nicely with few words. Kata is a tool like the alphabet, it is fun to learn but only scratches the surface....
Totally agree. The kata surface is a pretty unique thing. It's used to win trophies also to gauge proficiency and more importantly to tie together the many techniques we call martial arts. Deep down kata can be a lot of fun, where in some dojo it is required to put your own kata together and be tested on it for artistic as well as functional value.The funny thing about kata is that the "surface" is a pretty unique thing. It's personal. I dance throughout my house every day but I'm not sure if I can muster this kind of performance art. So it's never really fair to dismiss any kind of routine, some of these people train like crazy, and deserve the gold they're given.
I feel we are on the same page.What an audience, by the way. They don't clap until they see the Southern Mantis.
If you listen closely, somebody's phone goes off right about the time he does what the Chinese call "Butterfly Palm Technique". That's some great timing.
The last half is the better part. More elemental.
Kiyuna Ryo of Japan had all eyes on him as he gave a strong performance to win the men's karate kata gold medal. Spain's Damian Quintero won the silver.www.nbcolympics.com
You do not need katas for your art to be effective for self defense, but if you like doing katas then keep it up!IMO individuals who find kata useless have been incorrectly trained. The brief time I trained with Sherman Harrill from 94 to his death, maybe 60 hours at clinics, he shared 800 applications for Isshinryu's 8 kata. All used to drop someone in every sort of circumstance. Likewise the 'bunkai' I received from Tristan Sutrisno and his father's shotokan studied in Japan in the 1930's has innumerable 'bunkai' all designed to do the same. Ditto for my studies in Chinese arts and tai chi chaun.
IMO the central focus of kata is development of technique force and speed, Application studies work on how every of those movements can break an attacker (figuratively).
If there's no kata there's no karate (as karate is Okinawan). Not to dis other answers they're just not karate no matter what name they use.
Correct yet incorrect. You do need forms as well as basics. The way to teach said basics and memorise them without an external supoport such as a book or video having kata is mandatory.You do not need katas for your art to be effective for self defense, but if you like doing katas then keep it up!
No it's not. Forms are an excellent tool for most. But they are absolutely not mandatory.Correct yet incorrect. You do need forms as well as basics. The way to teach said basics and memorise them without an external supoport such as a book or video having kata is mandatory.
If I may clarify, a form would be something as simple as a guard position. A guard position and a jab plus a cross. Knowing proper body mechanics to execute said technique.No it's not. Forms are an excellent tool for most. But they are absolutely not mandatory.
On the other hand, I have seen this video:No it's not. Forms are an excellent tool for most. But they are absolutely not mandatory.
I believe the better training result is the key issue.You do need forms as well as basics.
Isn't the 4 move combo a form of it own? One that you prefer to use and have made yours.I believe the better training result is the key issue.
If your form has 40 moves. Instead of doing your form once, you can use that time to train your personal combo (such as side kick, hook punch, spin back fist, hook punch) 4 moves combo 10 times.
Which training will give you better result?
- Doing 40 moves form once? or
- Doing 4 moves combo 10 times?
Have you watched many football games? Footballers fall over all the time without even being touched! It's the origin of the no touch KO.I have probably stated this before but...
The way I see it, doing kata correctly requires you to be quite strong, fast, and flexible. And if you are strong, fast, and flexible, you'd probably fair decently well in an altercation with an untrained dude about your same size. Same logic applies to any athlete, really (I personally would not want to square up with a soccer player, for example).
This guy is all over the place a few points I disagree with and why.On the other hand, I have seen this video:
and it helped me change my perspective and understand a different way of seeing/doing things. I would still argue in a way that trough tactics and strategies forms are inherently developped but as they are not trained specifically it wouldn't be a proper way of saying things.
I may also be wrong and have failed to understand what was meant regardless.
On a different/same note, I understand what he says and can agree with it up to a point. Reason I am saying up to a point is that a lot of Krav Maga seems to be using that model to teach and by the end of a curriculum most people end up fighting with relatively weak MMA skills and add a few groin shots/illegal moves to UFC and that is the result. Of course this is a stereotype but from what I have seen, someone with no knowledge of combat that just learns strategies and tactics will be not afraid to use those and be agressive when needs be but the ensuring it is as efficient as possible portion may not be there. Now, does it matter that the elbow is not at x angle when throwing the hook? Not at all, it is however helpful to know how to put power and torque behind that hook to ensure the person will react accordingly and the main subject can escape or call for help whichever....
I found it interesting that my opinion was disagreed with and wanted to know more. I now have a better/different understanding and properly see the light hahaha.
Thanks for sparking that curiosity in me, I never imagined other options were there. Goes to prove I am but a young puppy in this world.
Which is why I was initially saying that "forms" (aka basics) were mandatory and one would end up having some regardless as any training would result in the person taking one form or another.This guy is all over the place a few points I disagree with and why.
1. Shows footage of pro fighters moving forward as their opponents are driven backwards in a mostly defensive and open position. This is dishonest for a few reasons. 1A. You can just as easily show footage of when an opponent moving backwards counters/KOs their opponent as they were moving forward in a similar fashion. 1B. Your opponent is "hurt" and the aggressing opponent is capitalizing on their vulnerable state. This scenario is very different from advancing towards a grounded/unhurt opponent to engage.
2. Bias, what we refer to it in kickboxing, is your alignment in comparison to your opponent's alignment is important to advantageous positioning. However, advantageous positioning is also gained by footwork, bias and proper body alignment.
3. Using the example of being completely behind your opponent in a striking situation is an amazing position to be in, too bad he couldn't show how to get there. I'd love to know
4. The "most striking classes" do their drills in place is painting with a broad brush. I've trained with multiple coaches/teachers and that's not the case from my experience. Maybe we just have a difference of experience with coaches.
5. Moving around with the pads is one drill to learn positioning. The holder will only let you throw the counter if you get to an advantageous position. From my experience this is common in boxing and kickboxing gyms.
6. Proper alignment with punching is important. I somewhat agree that nitpicking over a few degrees of difference is unnecessary. However, watch some of the Bare Knuckle boxing fight or even a few UFC fights and see what happens when their knuckles or shins are not in proper alignment at the moment of impact.
7. Putting your hands down doesn't make you better. There are both pro/cons to hands up/down. There isn't one ultimate fighting stance/posture. Plenty of footage of both examples, but he didn't include any.
I agree with you on his tactic to get views, I also like how it sparks conversation. However, I've seen this tactic with other content creators and they make stronger points and are somewhat more consistent. He seems to make broad statements with absolute certainty.This youtube creator likes to spark controversy with most of his videos. He sure doesn't know all but his input is interesting and usually leads to conversation...
Kata aren't mandatory, at all. Plenty of systems manage to deliver results without them.Correct yet incorrect. You do need forms as well as basics. The way to teach said basics and memorise them without an external supoport such as a book or video having kata is mandatory.
Having practiced various arts I can confirm that to learn all techniques by heart and have access to them from easy memory a kata is helpful. When learning drills and techniques seperately there is no issue to execute them or even have them flow (usually more freely) together.
To truly be considered a martial artist one needs to know their art inside out and be able to pass it entirely without any external support. And the best and simplest way to achieve that id via kata.
On the other hand, as a practitionner, one can focus only on one of the various aspect of martial arts and become extremely proficient in that; as in this case (and the only real thing that matters as per my opinion of martial arts) self defense in the real world. You sure don't need to learn kata to become good in that aspect. However I would like to posit that when at a higher level ones solo practice of a curriculum of self defense, if done without checking a cheat sheet or repeating movements more then once, would look very much like a kata.
So in the end, kata or something very similar will come out of any martial practice...
(I am not even talking about kata competition or that aspect as this is literally child's play and choreography for the sake of choreography.)
Which leads me to also question (sorry to offend) the reasoning of styles that have more then 10 15 kata. As one is to know the bunkai (at least one version of it) for every movement in every kata and be proficient with such movement, either I am an idiot but I cannot fathom to have that much knowledge and proficiency for 60 kata. At that point they are performed for other reasons then actual efficiency and integration into actual combat. Good for historical posterity and ensuring the passing down of knowledge(even tough it may be empty knowledge without said bunkai and true efficiency) in a cultural sense but not necessairly in a martial sense...
Agree! if you know a set of combo drill, you can create as many forms as you want to.Kata aren't mandatory, at all. Plenty of systems manage to deliver results without them.
Again, can't agree more with that.Agree! if you know a set of combo drill, you can create as many forms as you want to.
- jab, jab, cross.
- jab, hook, hook.
- hook, hook, uppercut.
- hook, back fist, overhand.
To link your drills into a form can only help you to record the information (as to write a book). It won't help you anything else.
Which form do you want to spend more training time into it?
- The form that you learned from your teacher, or
- the form that you created yourself?
Technically untrue.Kata aren't mandatory, at all. Plenty of systems manage to deliver results without them.