Understanding Wing Chun's Centre Line

Flying Crane

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Makes senses, there's a long cultural connection between the two.

Keep in mind both went through centuries and centuries of military dynasty pressure to be effective or die on the battlefield.
I have always understood that Tibetan and Fujian crane developed independently. They do not share a history, one did not derive from the other, they did not diverge from a common ancestral method. If you look at their forms, they are quite different. Not just the choreography, but the foundation and fundamental methodology of their techniques. To even the casual observer it is evident that they are completely different approach.

Different people in different geographic regions found inspiration in the same animal and the fact that they both call their system White Crane is coincidental.
 

Oily Dragon

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I have always understood that Tibetan and Fujian crane developed independently. They do not share a history, one did not derive from the other, they did not diverge from a common ancestral method. If you look at their forms, they are quite different. Not just the choreography, but the foundation and fundamental methodology of their techniques. To even the casual observer it is evident that they are completely different approach.

Different people in different geographic regions found inspiration in the same animal and the fact that they both call their system White Crane is coincidental.
Wing Chun contains both, so do all Five southern family fist methods. Jow Ga has both. They definitely share a history. It's like two cousins getting married, really.

Read here on the "Journey to the South", part and the Ten Tigers of Canton. That's the connection between Tibet and Fujian kung fu. And Wong Fei Hung himself was the son of one of them, of course.

 

JowGaWolf

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I think perhaps people tend to forget how lethal a stick/staff is.
I'm reminded every time it gets out of control and smashes my knee or shin lol. I didn't start out liking the staff. IT was something that grew on me. The more I used it the more I enjoyed it, People probably down play it because it seems like a really simple weapon after all it's just a stick, just swing it. lol. Its a very misleading weapon.
 

Flying Crane

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Wing Chun contains both, so do all Five southern family fist methods. Jow Ga has both. They definitely share a history. It's like two cousins getting married, really.

Read here on the "Journey to the South", part and the Ten Tigers of Canton. That's the connection between Tibet and Fujian kung fu. And Wong Fei Hung himself was the son of one of them, of course.

I am definitely familiar with the history of the system and am aware of the influence it has had on Hung ga. I suppose at some point these things come into contact with each other and there can be some influence of one upon the other, in both directions. None of this stuff remains pure (if that can even be defined) for very long.

I see similarities in aspects of Choy lay fut and Jow ga, again it isnt surprising that some ideas become widespread and find a place within other systems. I confess I dont know much about Fujian crane, but all that I have seen of it indicates it is a different inspiration of the crane. I am aware that Fujian crane may be an ancestor or at least heavy influencer of wing Chun.
 

Flying Crane

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I'm reminded every time it gets out of control and smashed my knee or shin lol. I didn't start out liking the staff. IT was something that grew on me. The more I used it the more I enjoyed it, People probably down play it because it seems like a really simple weapon after all it's just a stick, just swing it. lol. Its a very misleading weapon.
Yeah, I agree. And the sword holds kind of a mystical/romantic place in our imagination so I think people see it as the pinnacle or something. But honestly, as long as I have the room to use it properly, I would choose Staff over sword any day of the week, if my life depended on it. Even more so for the spear.
 

Oily Dragon

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I am definitely familiar with the history of the system and am aware of the influence it has had on Hung ga. I suppose at some point these things come into contact with each other and there can be some influence of one upon the other, in both directions. None of this stuff remains pure (if that can even be defined) for very long.

I see similarities in aspects of Choy lay fut and Jow ga, again it isnt surprising that some ideas become widespread and find a place within other systems. I confess I dont know much about Fujian crane, but all that I have seen of it indicates it is a different inspiration of the crane. I am aware that Fujian crane may be an ancestor or at least heavy influencer of wing Chun.
Definitely! The Ten Tigers certainly knew of each other, and interacted, in each other's styles (and in fiction, they even formed a 10-man super kung fu team, basically the first Chinese Avengers). One of them was Leung Kwan, whose dynamic tension form I am mastering as we chat. He taught Wong Fei Hung the Iron Wire, that form now has numerous variations based on personal flare, but you can still spot the old, canonical stuff, compared to weird new stuff people are doing that...is definitely not the Shaolin Iron Wire of Wong Hei Hung or Lam Sai Wing.

Let's move away from animals then and focus on the Plum Flower Boxing, which obliterates (imo) the whole concept of a single centerline and is supposed to be fundamental training in Wing Chun, but probably isn't. I don't meet many Wing Chun students that have ever heard of this.

If the two Crane methods we just discussed influenced all sorts of other arts (even Okinawan...) then Plum Flower Boxing is an ever wider scale. It's a canonical Shaolin training method that made it's way into everything: CLF, Hung Ga, Bagua, Wing Chun, Five Ancestor Fist...so if you train those and never heard of it, it's yet another key to the puzzle.

Are you familiar with 5 point Plum Flower work? This is something else that seems to be missing from a lot of Wing Chun schools, but it's so fundamental you have to wonder if not, then why?? Meihuaquan is one of the most diverse styles in China, and definitely impacted Wing Chun, and it's today found in various forms in all the more modern styles, so why isn't this sort of thing taught in every Wing Chun school?

When I said Wing Chun has 1 centerline, I forgot to mention it really has this many. And many more...

This video had me at the fridge.

 
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Oily Dragon

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If people have never heard about the plum flower long fist system, they should heard about the boxer rebellion. The main boxer rebellion members trained the plum flower long fist system.
The White Lotus Rebellion, the Eight Trigram Rebellion, sure.

100,000+ Buddhist warriors invaded the Forbidden City, once. They were brutally put down by the Emperor.
 

wckf92

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Just my opinion but the dude in that video has done the plum flower jong a major injustice. Lots to break down and discuss in that video but to keep it short I'll just stop there. LOL.
 

Oily Dragon

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Just my opinion but the dude in that video has done the plum flower jong a major injustice. Lots to break down and discuss in that video but to keep it short I'll just stop there. LOL.
If you mean the part about not using actual poles for stance work, I totally agree.

They're called plumb flower poles for a good reason.
 

wckf92

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If you mean the part about not using actual poles for stance work, I totally agree.

They're called plumb flower poles for a good reason.

Yeah that part...and others.

How he was saying to just go around the plastic cones was weird.
 

Oily Dragon

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Yeah that part...and others.

How he was saying to just go around the plastic cones was weird.
I find these sorts of videos sort of adorable. Here's an older dude in his garage trying to figure out Kung Fu. Good for him. He clearly learned something basic and made a cute clip. Sometimes the super amateurs are the best. Cones!

It's food for my own thought, I have a 6 point pole setup at home. Maybe I just feel sympathy.
 

wckf92

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I find these sorts of videos sort of adorable. Here's an older dude in his garage trying to figure out Kung Fu. Good for him. He clearly learned something basic and made a cute clip. Sometimes the super amateurs are the best. Cones!

It's food for my own thought, I have a 6 point pole setup at home. Maybe I just feel sympathy.

Yeah if one has never been through that training...ya really can't even relate. ;):D
 

Kung Fu Wang

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If you mean the part about not using actual poles for stance work, I totally agree.

They're called plumb flower poles for a good reason.
The term "pole" may be mis-used here. By definition a pole has larger diameter than a staff.

This is a pole.

John_pole.jpg
 

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Kung Fu Wang

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It's not that kind of pole, dude. Think bigger, and footwork.
I'm talking about the WC 6 and 1/2 points pole.

The "hand striking pole" that I had learned when I was 11 require that your fingers cannot hold on to the entire pole. This way, when your opponent's pole slides along your pole, his pole won't be able to hit on your fingers.
 
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