triggered Salute

[GouRonin]

Triggered Salute (Front- Right Hand Direct Push)
1. An attacker at 12 o'clock pushes your left shoulder with their right hand.

2. Immediately and simultaneously turn your body counter-clockwise, thus riding the force of the push and using your attacker's force, borrowed force. As you do this, step your right foot into a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you pin their right hand with your left and simultaneously execute a right palm strike to your attacker's chin. Note: your right step may also buckle your attacker's knee.

3. Frictionally slide your right arm down your attacker's right arm, making the shape of a crane with your hand. Note: This should hook your attacker's right arm down towards 5:30 and end in an anchored elbow.

4. Immediately execute a right inward elbow to your attacker's right solar plexus.

5. Follow through and execute a right outward elbow strike to your floating ribs.

6. Using residual torque, follow through with a right backfist to your attacker's floating ribs or kidney. Follow through and cock your right hand at your right hip.

7. Execute a right vertical back knuckle strike to your attacker's chin.

8. Cross out towards 7:30.

 

[paulk]

Hi

Long time since Iv'e seen that (20 yrs), how about Squeezing The Pach next?

 

[GouRonin]

Stay away from my peach!
:mst:

 

[Mace]

So is this generally how everyone does triggered salute? Anything different?
Mace

 

[GouRonin]

I like to use a crane hook sometimes to break the elbow.

:boing1::boing2::boing1:

 

[Mace]

Okay, here's my first problem with this tech. While stepping up to comply with your attacker, you pin the hand. But in doing so, you direct an incoming weapon toward your centerline, namely your face. It only takes a small variation and you are swallowing your own teeth. :angry:
Mace

 

[GouRonin]

Imagining your spine as a pole which the rest of your body pivots on. Left shoulder retreats in effect while the right arm works. The pivot closes off the center-line and allows for the arm break after the heel palm. The extention of the arm to the face with the heel palm negates the opponent's depth and height. This should remove the chance of facial damage.

The step forward is not a straight step but more of a pivot with a step. I'm not sure if I am explaining what I'm trying to say though. That help?

 

[Mace]

Hey Gou,
I think the problem is still inherent in the tech and here is why. Have you ever seen the end of Rocky 3 or the beginning of Rocky 4, where Apollo and Rocky are sparring? They're dancing around the ring and then at the same moment step in to strike, both with the same arm. This tech reminds me of that. You are using your rear hand to pin their lead hand, and if you miss their lead hand, you are trading shots to the head. Next time you work with a partner, try it. Don't tell them you are going to do anything, but run through the tech a few times and pick the speed up on it. Then, just alter your push a bit as soon as you see them move. When they comply and rotate their body, your hand will be around 8-12 inches from their face, the redirection is easy and their pin guides it. You don't want to guide anything toward your face. Hope this makes sense.
Mace

 

[GouRonin]

While I would never say you'd be able to roll the whole technique in a confrontation. (I never have) I think the angle you're bringing it from might be why you're having problems? (BTW, the "Rocky" image was a great way to get it across) The right hand sorta comes from your hip in an upward motion. The angle makes sure the guy does not see it and it contours up the chest to the chin so that you don't miss. You can close your eyes and still make this shot because you contour from the low angle.

Now I think that another issue may be the choice to use this technique. Remember, when we practice these techniques we always do so in the "ideal phase" where everything is perfect. Now I might be wrong but the idea is that it's a push, the motion is slower than a punch. (Why you would explode on this guy for a push is beyong me but we'll just leave that part for now ) If you knew it was coming you'd probably opt for another technique. But this sorta catches you by surprise.

So I hear what you're saying but I think if the "what if" part of your question is applied then we're moving out of the "ideal phase" and in to the area that is fun. The "How can we beat this guy to death" phase. American Kenpo is full of that. (ie - "Sword and Hammer" where the guy pulls us fom the rear to sucker punch and we crush his throat which would kill him and then we continue to hammer him in the balls? And that is yellow belt!) Overskill or overkill, the guy is either dead or in pain.

I see a lot of other arts in Kenpo. The things is that a lot of our techniques can be used as control techniques if modified. But then again we roll into the "What if."

But man, good thoughts from you! Keeping me on my toes so early in the A.M.!
:asian:

 

[Mace]

Hey Gou,
Guess somebody had to keep you on your toes today. But I want the rest of the week off.:shrug:
Next question. Isn't a push no more than an open handed punch? I could push the chest, shoulder, I've seen the face, you get my idea. And what dictates the speed of a push? Every confrontation I've seen that's involved a push has involved a fast push with a good amount of force. Trying to rock ya back on your heels. A light push is usually your buddy hitting you up for the next round of beer. So leaving the right hand out for a moment in Triggered Salute, why do we pin? We comply with their action which means the hand is either on you or a split second away, so is pinning it toward you the best choice of action? And even with the right hand inserted, coming from the obscure, what guarentee is there that the pin will happen. Back to the rocky movie.
Just my thoughts, this tech is fun to pick apart. Have you worked at all to make it a two handed tech?
Mace

 

[GouRonin]

I see what you're getting at. The speed of the action. However I still think that if you cancell those zones it should negate toe to toe aspect but like I said that is in the perfect world. Doesn't make it true. I also think that if you use the pin with a third arm break/destruction off the chest you might also negate the rear left fist coming your way.

I have been playing with some two-handed Kenpo as per jaybacca's instruction but I sometimes actually prefer 1 handed Kenpo because then I can hold my beer as I kick some @ss.

heh heh heh
:cheers:

 

[Big Guy]

:asian: Think of Triggered salute, as agrab trying to set you back on to your heels with a left punch following, By stepping in your cancelling the back up weapon of that punch. That is one possible scenrio ,also think of as a second push as you step in and cancel the backup weapon. In any case by time they give you a push you are thanking God that it was not a punch to your mouth.
We all have to remember that in kenpo we are studying motion and trying to cover all the what if's and why's. My belief is you should treat everything as if it were a punch and not let a opponent get that close. With all our techniques we have many options, go outside and cancel their width. go inside and cancel their height , it's up to you on which you choose , and it is your choice and preference and you try not to let them dictate it to you. Thank you and lets keep training sorry that some time I have to much to say




:cheers:

 

[Mace]

Hey guys,
Big guy - Don't ever apologize for a long post, its not viewed as long winded but informative, at least by me anyway. The internet is just another tool for the exchange of knowledge and you are nice enough to offer yours.
Gou - Have you learned to settle your base so as not to spill any beer while fighting one handed?? :rofl:
Mace

 

[GouRonin]

While you'd think that you'd have to settle your base to make sure you don't spill your beer it just isn't true. Actually settling your base makes it worse. It's the equilibrium of the beer bottle itself that you have to maintain. Hell I can run across logs like a lumberjack on a river and not spill my beer. How you ask? Maintain the base of the beer, not the holder. I'm currently working on my newest project, how to breakfall and roll and not spill your beer. Watch for my book and it's accompanying video this summer.

 

[Sandor]

Take a look here for Master Wedlake giving this tech a whack

 

[jaybacca72]

ok boys you braught it out of me,the point you are all missing is whereever the head goes the body follows so in fact when your opponent pushes you would actually pivot by rotating your shoulders to wether the push deminish the force then you would step in while pinning the hand a shooting a palm heel which is torquing by the way will cancel the back up weapon and change your opponents centerline while the pin is applied as a wrist break and while rotating will put your opponents arm in position for the crane break to the elbow with out losing continuity of motion and then>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>finish the techique.how that is suffice
later
jaybacca

 

[Mace]

Okay,
Looking back I don't think I ever gave an option after criticizing the tech. I understand the use of purposeful compliance as the push comes in, and I also know that the palm to the face that we deliver to our attacker will control their head and thus depth zones. My problem has always been that your opponents hand lands first, and if altered at all, will cause you severe pain. All it takes is a small orbit and weapon change and you will be directing the hand into your own face. So why is it that we pin it? Why not use a parry or an outward waiters hand check? This will also create the ability to use both hands immediately while staying on the inside of the arm. Thoughts?
Mace :asian:

 

[jaybacca72]

mace you have some valid concerns,but our interpretations on this technique will vary depending on your level of experience.just to give a little idea where iam at first of all i you the pin as a wrist break while controlling the thumb(a concept from filipino ma) then some times i will short cut the tech after the last elbow and my right hand continues into a bent arm lever take or arm break from the underside .not to mention that if you are into the pressure point stuff the pin is a activation point and the palm can be the knockout. as far as redirecting to your face i don't see it happening because when the push makes contact and if you train sensitivity then you know that there will be forward pressure by that time your left hand pin should already be there but if it is not then the orbit to your face won't happen because of your opponent but because you don't deliver the tech with the proper timing and positioning.the pin negates his height be dropping your weght ie bend your knees,the shoulders rotating negate his width and the palm negates his depth.hope this helps or you can play the devils advocate and we shall continue to verbally spar haha
later
jaybacca

 

[Mace]

Devil's Advocate? Who me? hehe. You made some good points and I think we are on the same page. Here is where I'm coming from. A person I know went to do Triggered on someone in an actual situation because of an incoming push. This person was not a white belt and was a skilled kenpoist. So as he stepped up to pin and palm heel, his opponent saw his motion, closed his hand, and cracked him in the jaw, all the while being directed by the written "pin". So my problem was never the pin, it was before the pin. Why pin if it can be demonstrated that you may get hit, intentionally or unintentionally? Why not check it away from your face. And please, if you haven't, try this with an opponent and play devil's advocate yourself. Change your push midpath when you see your partner move into anything to the jawline, but please be nice.
Mace

 

[GouRonin]

The techniques are designed only to work in the "ideal phase" and I have been told that your chances of pulling off a technique as written in a confrontation are zilch. They are there to show rules and principles of motion. If it does not work when you try to pull it off that does not mean that the technique, "does not work" but that there were other variables to be considered. In your friend's case there were other factors at play. I suppose this is why most Kenpoists need to slow down and develop their read time.

I just spent the weekend being told, "No," based on rules and principles. As I said, the techniques are for showing these ideas. I have pulled off techniques, not as written, and had them work. maybe not in entirety but parts of them.

God I wish I could open my skull and spill everything I saw for you all.