Treating seniors and juniors the same

andyjeffries

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I posted this in another thread but didn't get any answers, so I'm breaking it out in to it's own thread in the hope of either "you are correct" or "No, you're wrong this is why and what the correct understanding is..."

Gnarlie said:
I try to start out by giving other people an equally high level of respect, regardless of who they are.


I'm interested in feedback on my reply; but basically I was told many years ago that this was wrong from a Korean etiquette point of view. Korean etiquette is centred around levels and senior/junior relationships. They expect that juniors show more respect to seniors. Therefore if you treat a junior with the same respect as you do a senior, you are effectively disrespecting the senior.


I was told this after a discussion about giving/accepting things with two hands. I was giving a paddle to my juniors with two hands (or one hand under the right elbow) as I was taught to give things in Taekwondo, but I was told that this is disrespectful to my seniors in treating them the same way. I guess when I learnt to give things respectfully I was a junior to everyone and no-one told me at some point when I started having juniors that I should treat them differently. I understood this was the Taekwondo/Korean way of giving things, and it was never explained that it's the Korean way of giving things to seniors.


Anyway, where I'm interested in feedback is - is my current understanding of Korean etiquette in this matter correct?
 

puunui

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I was told this after a discussion about giving/accepting things with two hands. I was giving a paddle to my juniors with two hands (or one hand under the right elbow) as I was taught to give things in Taekwondo, but I was told that this is disrespectful to my seniors in treating them the same way.

When passing the paddle between junior and senior, I have always taken the position that both bow and both accept or receive the paddle with two hands.

As for juniors giving more respect to seniors, I don't know if I would phrase it quite like that. And if you phrase it as such, many people, especially non-korean juniors, may get upset.
 

terryl965

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Andy I have always used the term proper ettiquite when in my school and try to remember the common rules of
1) Treat people the way you would want to be treated
2)Always be positive and polite, we all have the right to curtesy
3)When in rome do as the romans, which means when in someone house do as the others. If they only have juniors bow when passing paddles then do the same if both bow do the same. It is more of treating people right.
 
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andyjeffries

andyjeffries

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Andy I have always used the term proper ettiquite when in my school and try to remember the common rules of
1) Treat people the way you would want to be treated
2)Always be positive and polite, we all have the right to curtesy
3)When in rome do as the romans, which means when in someone house do as the others. If they only have juniors bow when passing paddles then do the same if both bow do the same. It is more of treating people right.

I feel your rules are morally good, but do you know the correct Korean etiquette? Do you strictly follow Korean etiquette (as best you can or as you understand it) or do you follow what you consider good American manners with a Korean influence (I believe you're American, if not, substitute the correct country)?
 

terryl965

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I feel your rules are morally good, but do you know the correct Korean etiquette? Do you strictly follow Korean etiquette (as best you can or as you understand it) or do you follow what you consider good American manners with a Korean influence (I believe you're American, if not, substitute the correct country)?

Andy I am American and I use the same etiquette as my instructor which was Korean, both bow when passing paddles and so forth. I try to keep what was tought to me by my G.M. and try to honor his wishes and hopefully my students will do the same. I do not know if what he tought was completely Korean etiquatte since alot do it differently than I. I wish I knew more about Korean TKD etiquette but in reality being in America and seeing so many Koreans do it differently I just get confused over it.
 

miguksaram

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From a cultural view point seniors are to be shown more respect than juniors. This can be done though levels of speech during conversation or through actions. For a very basic example of greeting someone. If I was meeting Pres. Lee of the USTC and greet him I would say "Lee Sa-jang anyanghasumnika." Then bow before he would bow and bow a little lower than him. If I was meeting a co-worker or friend who is younger than me I would say "Ji-ho shi, anyang." or maybe "Kim seungsenim, anyanghaseyo." While I could use the ending of 'seyo' with Pres. Lee, I definitely would not just say anyang.

While our state of mind is that if the person is a jerk you do not give them respect even if they are a senior. I do believe eastern, or more to the point Korean, state of mind is that you still use the honorifics and respectful tone regardless.
 

StudentCarl

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I don't have any background with Korean culture, but my approach is to treat everyone with respect, and treat seniors with more, befitting their higher standing. I do this regardless of nationality or ethnicity.
 
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andyjeffries

andyjeffries

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From a cultural view point seniors are to be shown more respect than juniors. This can be done though levels of speech during conversation or through actions. For a very basic example of greeting someone. If I was meeting Pres. Lee of the USTC and greet him I would say "Lee Sa-jang anyanghasumnika." Then bow before he would bow and bow a little lower than him. If I was meeting a co-worker or friend who is younger than me I would say "Ji-ho shi, anyang." or maybe "Kim seungsenim, anyanghaseyo." While I could use the ending of 'seyo' with Pres. Lee, I definitely would not just say anyang.

While our state of mind is that if the person is a jerk you do not give them respect even if they are a senior. I do believe eastern, or more to the point Korean, state of mind is that you still use the honorifics and respectful tone regardless.

While my Korean is still pretty basic, I completely understand the speech levels.

To phrase my question differently; would President Lee take (mild?) offence if you use the most polite form of speech to Mr Shi in his presence (thereby treating both equally)? President Lee himself may be a nice guy in real life and not easily offended, but I'm not referring to him specifically but just a generic high senior Korean in this example.
 

miguksaram

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While my Korean is still pretty basic, I completely understand the speech levels.

To phrase my question differently; would President Lee take (mild?) offence if you use the most polite form of speech to Mr Shi in his presence (thereby treating both equally)? President Lee himself may be a nice guy in real life and not easily offended, but I'm not referring to him specifically but just a generic high senior Korean in this example.
If he knew that Ji-ho was a junior to not only him but myself, and he knew I knew that too, he would take offense. Not granted, my experience with the Korean culture has shown me that they would not do anything publicly to show their offense. They would for the most part take you to the side and discuss the issue or just scold you outright. There is also a possibility that they may sarcastically say something like "Oh..I didn't know Ji-ho was such an important person" in order to reign back that level of hierarchy, though this is seldom done.
 

Gnarlie

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Hi

I'd like to say 2 things

1) the quote from me at the start of this thread is out of context, I meant in a general life setting, not just in the dojang

2) my current instructor is Korean, and tells me that tolerance takes precedence - we need to recognise that we are from different cultures, and in the spirit of inclusion, try to adapt to each other, not one completely to the other. As long as mutual respect exists such that we are willing to make allowances and tolerate or even embrace cultural differences, I don't see a problem.
 

chrispillertkd

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I'm interested in feedback on my reply; but basically I was told many years ago that this was wrong from a Korean etiquette point of view. Korean etiquette is centred around levels and senior/junior relationships. They expect that juniors show more respect to seniors. Therefore if you treat a junior with the same respect as you do a senior, you are effectively disrespecting the senior.

It's hardly a secret that Korean culture is influenced greatly by Neo-Confucianism and is very hierarchical. Taekwon-Do etiquette, too. But, do you think there is any difference at all between general Korean culture and Taekwon-Do culture (for want of a better descriptor)?

I was told this after a discussion about giving/accepting things with two hands. I was giving a paddle to my juniors with two hands (or one hand under the right elbow) as I was taught to give things in Taekwondo, but I was told that this is disrespectful to my seniors in treating them the same way. I guess when I learnt to give things respectfully I was a junior to everyone and no-one told me at some point when I started having juniors that I should treat them differently. I understood this was the Taekwondo/Korean way of giving things, and it was never explained that it's the Korean way of giving things to seniors.

It's an interesting observation. We give and receive with both hands in class, support our elbows with the other hand when shaking hands, etc. regardless of whether or not one is a junior or senior. Then again, there are times when a senior won't do these things to a junior but no one takes it as a slight. I certainly wasn't offended by GM Choi, Jung Hwa not supporting his elbow last time we shook hands. But then, he didn't seem put off when other senior members did so when they shook the hands of junior ranks. And he was the ranking black belt present (and, FWIW, I've never seen him get upset about rank or seniority; I have heard him say on more than one occassion that people tend to get a bit hung up on the issue, though). Courtesy as a tenet of Taekwon-Do doesn't not apply to someone because of their rank.

Pax,

Chris
 
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andyjeffries

andyjeffries

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1) the quote from me at the start of this thread is out of context, I meant in a general life setting, not just in the dojang

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply otherwise - I was just quoting it as it was that comment that triggered my line of thought.

2) my current instructor is Korean, and tells me that tolerance takes precedence - we need to recognise that we are from different cultures, and in the spirit of inclusion, try to adapt to each other, not one completely to the other. As long as mutual respect exists such that we are willing to make allowances and tolerate or even embrace cultural differences, I don't see a problem.

I agree. My thoughts are though - if I'm in Korea and trying to behave as acceptable to Korean culture as possible (or if visiting instructors from Korea are seeing me), then what is the absolute correct way according to Korean culture.
 

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