Training Methods Old School vs. New School

punisher73

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how many generations,are you going back? Mechanisation has been progressively reducing hard labour for about 300 years, its been a good while since farmers ploughed by hand

Even the farmers I know today that deal with livestock and bailing hay are in much better shape and a lot stronger than the average person and even some above average "weight lifters". Of course these are smaller farms and not the huge commercial farms.

Heck, realistically you can go back to even the 50's and 60's in the US for hard labor with certain professions like iron workers and dock hands.
 

jobo

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Even the farmers I know today that deal with livestock and bailing hay are in much better shape and a lot stronger than the average person and even some above average "weight lifters". Of course these are smaller farms and not the huge commercial farms.

Heck, realistically you can go back to even the 50's and 60's in the US for hard labor with certain professions like iron workers and dock hands.
but hard labour,as you call it had the effect of causing long term injuries from over use and poor body mechanics. So you ended up with people who were prematurely old and decrepit rather than what you are suggesting a large group of very fit and able people
i picked a life long injury from the,amount of papers a i carried on my paper round
 

gpseymour

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but hard labour,as you call it had the effect of causing long term injuries from over use and poor body mechanics. So you ended up with people who were prematurely old and decrepit rather than what you are suggesting a large group of very fit and able people
i picked a life long injury from the,amount of papers a i carried on my paper round
For many of them, yes. I don't think that hampers their early learning in MA, though. It hampers them later in life. I don't think anyone was suggesting that hard labor was better for the person, just that it made them tougher, stronger, and more fit (at the time) when they started MA than most people today are when they start.

I also think we have many more middle-aged people starting MA now. My first 8 students were all 35 or older. All but 1 was older than me (I was 45 at the time).
 

hoshin1600

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older methods were better, todays fitness doesnt even come close to the demands of long ago. lifting weights is not natural. the Chinese in the late 1800's were super conditioned they were impervious to cuts and some where even impervious to bullets. i would bet an iron shirt practitioner is way better than a weight lifter today.
:punch: BOOYA
 

gpseymour

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older methods were better, todays fitness doesnt even come close to the demands of long ago. lifting weights is not natural. the Chinese in the late 1800's were super conditioned they were impervious to cuts and some where even impervious to bullets. i would bet an iron shirt practitioner is way better than a weight lifter today.
:punch: BOOYA
What is unnatural about lifting weights?
 

PhotonGuy

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older methods were better, todays fitness doesnt even come close to the demands of long ago. lifting weights is not natural. the Chinese in the late 1800's were super conditioned they were impervious to cuts and some where even impervious to bullets. i would bet an iron shirt practitioner is way better than a weight lifter today.
:punch: BOOYA
You believe too many crazy stories. While there might be some truth behind the "iron shirt" methods back then much of it is exaggerated and some of it is downright fantasy. When they appeared to be impervious to bullets for instance, they were shooting blanks not live rounds.
 

Flying Crane

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You believe too many crazy stories. While there might be some truth behind the "iron shirt" methods back then much of it is exaggerated and some of it is downright fantasy. When they appeared to be impervious to bullets for instance, they were shooting blanks not live rounds.
I think you may be failing to recognize sarcasm.
 

hoshin1600

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What is unnatural about lifting weights?

I was following jobo's lead and was just making a ridiculous comment.
However there is some truth in that weight lifting is often an isolation action. Natural daily hard work like farm work involves secondary stabilizing muscles as well as the primary. And contrary to many posts made, there are still farms here in the US and it's damn hard work.
 

jobo

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I was following jobo's lead and was just making a ridiculous comment.
However there is some truth in that weight lifting is often an isolation action. Natural daily hard work like farm work involves secondary stabilizing muscles as well as the primary. And contrary to many posts made, there are still farms here in the US and it's damn hard work.
what's NATURAL about farm work?
 

punisher73

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what's NATURAL about farm work?

Look at the current trend in the "fitness world", it is all about "functional movement". Most of those training methods mimic many of the things that hard labor does all day. Things like carrying around heavy objects from point A to point B (the lift/exercise is even called a farmer's walk). Lifting heavy awkward objects from the ground up to a platform. Pulling heavy objects with a large rope across the ground or up in the air.

Much of the exercises in weight lifting are designed to isolate a specific muscle, which does not occur outside of that specific exercise in the vast majority of cases. When is the last time you were on your back and mimicked a dumbbell flye? Almost never, but that same muscle action is used when you are trying to hold and lift a barrel or rock to move it or carry it and you are also using the rest of the body with this action.

To me that is what is meant by "natural", something the body is supposed to be doing and designed to do.
 

jobo

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Look at the current trend in the "fitness world", it is all about "functional movement". Most of those training methods mimic many of the things that hard labor does all day. Things like carrying around heavy objects from point A to point B (the lift/exercise is even called a farmer's walk). Lifting heavy awkward objects from the ground up to a platform. Pulling heavy objects with a large rope across the ground or up in the air.

Much of the exercises in weight lifting are designed to isolate a specific muscle, which does not occur outside of that specific exercise in the vast majority of cases. When is the last time you were on your back and mimicked a dumbbell flye? Almost never, but that same muscle action is used when you are trying to hold and lift a barrel or rock to move it or carry it and you are also using the rest of the body with this action.

To me that is what is meant by "natural", something the body is supposed to be doing and designed to do.
so the people who lift heavy awkward objects and have bad backs, is that natural?

people tend to use natural to indicate healthy or good, there is nothing healthy about a prolapsed disc, but it is natural

if the end result is spinal damage, or any long term injury, then there is a,strong case,for saying the body wasn't,designed to do that! What ever that is
 
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hoshin1600

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what's NATURAL about farm work?

see what i am talking about ...ridiculous.
current scientific thought is that humans have been farming for 23,000 years.
Farming May Have Started Way Earlier Than Scientists Thought | HuffPost

the first nautilus exercise machines where sold in 1970.

machines and weight lifting isolate muscle groups , tiling soil or bailing hay does not. the body has evolved over thousands of years to do natural work like farming.

how about for once you stop arguing just so you can feel superior.
 

hoshin1600

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so the people who lift heavy awkward objects and have bad backs, is that natural?

people tend to use natural to indicate healthy or good, there is nothing healthy about a prolapsed disc, but it is natural

if the end result is spinal damage, or any long term injury, then there is a,strong case,for saying the body wasn't,designed to do that! What ever that is

karate causes brain anurisims and strokes.
aikido and judo causes kidney failure.
BJJ causes joint damage
using a computer causes meta carpal and poor eye sight
sitting in a chair causes spine issues
walking on concrete causes knee damage and plantarfaciitis
eating sugar causes cancer, diabetes and other health issues
eating wheat can cause nurological issues
you can die from driving a car
you can die during child birth
a meteor can hit the earth and we will all die

maybe we should all just crawl into a hole and hide from life.

do you have a point other than just wanting to be a *%^(*&
 

jobo

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karate causes brain anurisims and strokes.
aikido and judo causes kidney failure.
BJJ causes joint damage
using a computer causes meta carpal and poor eye sight
sitting in a chair causes spine issues
walking on concrete causes knee damage and plantarfaciitis
eating sugar causes cancer, diabetes and other health issues
eating wheat can cause nurological issues
you can die from driving a car
you can die during child birth
a meteor can hit the earth and we will all die

maybe we should all just crawl into a hole and hide from life.

do you have a point other than just wanting to be a *%^(*&
yes and you've made my point for me with the,above, to much of anything is bad for you. Yet your sticking to the point that HARD physical labour is good for you.

that much the same as you recommending that people should eat as much sugar as possible
 

gpseymour

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yes and you've made my point for me with the,above, to much of anything is bad for you. Yet your sticking to the point that HARD physical labour is good for you.

that much the same as you recommending that people should eat as much sugar as possible
False equivalency.
 

jobo

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False equivalency.
maybe, but it was his false equivalency, as he brought sugar into it as a means of comparison!

but anyway, no its much the same, you need sugar in your diet, just as you need exercise in your life. Deciding that excess exercise is good, is much the same,as deciding that excessive,sugar is,
 
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jobo

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False equivalency.
I'm im betting that his life is over flowing with labour saving devices, when he takes his clothes down to the river to wash them by beating them on rocks, his might he might have a case to make
 

gpseymour

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I'm im betting that his life is over flowing with labour saving devices, when he takes his clothes down to the river to wash them by beating them on rocks, his might he might have a case to make
That he uses labor-saving devices doesn't change the original statement: that manual labor leads to muscle gain and toughness not commonly found among those of us whose most manual labor is pounding a keyboard.
 

hoshin1600

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:facepalm::banghead:
why do i even bother.

and i dont have to drag my clothes down to the river and beat them on a rock....i am married, she is my best labor saving device.
(and on a side note she grew up in Thai land and actually did grow up washing clothes on a rock but now she lives in America with Louis Vuitton hand bags and shoes and drives a Lexus )
 

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