Training in your native language vs. the art's language

[skribs]

I speak English. I took 2 years of Spanish in high school and barely learned anything, and I retained even less. Languages do not come easy to me. From what I've seen, some martial arts taught in America will mostly use English for the names of the techniques and drills, while others will use the names of the techniques from the language in which the art originated.

Both Taekwondo schools I have gone to have used about 5% Korean and 95% English. At my school we use the Korean words for Attention, Bow, Ready Position, Return, and Focused Spirit Shout. We have maybe 2-3 techniques that we use the Korean word for (spearhand strike, double-knife hand block, diamond mountain block). We use the Korean names for the forms and count in Korean when we're stretching.

But everything else is done in English. 99% of the techniques of the form is done in English. We count the steps of the forms in English. We number our combinations in English. And all of the drills that we do are done in English.

Personally, I like this, because (as mentioned above) I am not good with languages. It's easy for me to link "front kick" with the action I need to take, where "ahp chaki" will require me to think "what does 'ahp chaki' mean?" before I apply it. There's a little bit of delay in my brain when I hear that. On the other hand, I respond right away to "Charyeot" and "Kyungrae" (attention and bow) so maybe I could learn those. But it still feels to me like it's easier for me to learn the art if I'm not also worried about the vocabulary.

On the other hand, I can see where in some cases it's more accurate to use the art's language. To me, it seems most people who train Japanese arts use mainly the Japanese words to describe the particular role a person plays, stance, throw, strike, drill, etc. Where discussions of a self defense drill might refer to an "attacker", "enemy", "opponent", "bad guy", etc., in the Japanese arts I always see it referred to as "uke". In other cases, I've seen really complicated sentences in English to describe a technique, and seen someone in another art use a simple one- or two-word phrase to describe the same technique.

The main advantage I see of this style is that if someone goes to Japan for a seminar, they will know a lot of what is being said already, even if they don't speak the language, because they hear all of the techniques in that language. Where I'm worried that if I go to Korea, I won't understand much of what's going on, because I will not have learned the techniques in Korean.

These are just some thoughts I had. What do you guys think? Have you trained both ways? Did you find one easier or harder? Which do you prefer?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I can see advantage on both approaches.

If you use the

- original terms, to communicate between different organizations will be easy.
- translated terms, since different organizations may translate the same term differently, communication between them may be difficult.

For example, the

- ACSCA uses the term "切(Qie) - cut".
- USSCA uses the term "切(Qie) - chop".

 

[Danny T]

For the most part I teach in English.
There is some terminology used in Thai for Muay Thai and Chinese for Wing Chun but for the most part it is English.
The only reason we use the different language is for either historical aspects or the term is already a recognized term in most all martial art circles. For example 'teep' for a foot jab and 'hubud lubud' or 'segand lebo' for tie-untie flow drill.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I speak English. I took 2 years of Spanish in high school and barely learned anything, and I retained even less. Languages do not come easy to me. From what I've seen, some martial arts taught in America will mostly use English for the names of the techniques and drills, while others will use the names of the techniques from the language in which the art originated.

Both Taekwondo schools I have gone to have used about 5% Korean and 95% English. At my school we use the Korean words for Attention, Bow, Ready Position, Return, and Focused Spirit Shout. We have maybe 2-3 techniques that we use the Korean word for (spearhand strike, double-knife hand block, diamond mountain block). We use the Korean names for the forms and count in Korean when we're stretching.

But everything else is done in English. 99% of the techniques of the form is done in English. We count the steps of the forms in English. We number our combinations in English. And all of the drills that we do are done in English.

Personally, I like this, because (as mentioned above) I am not good with languages. It's easy for me to link "front kick" with the action I need to take, where "ahp chaki" will require me to think "what does 'ahp chaki' mean?" before I apply it. There's a little bit of delay in my brain when I hear that. On the other hand, I respond right away to "Charyeot" and "Kyungrae" (attention and bow) so maybe I could learn those. But it still feels to me like it's easier for me to learn the art if I'm not also worried about the vocabulary.

On the other hand, I can see where in some cases it's more accurate to use the art's language. To me, it seems most people who train Japanese arts use mainly the Japanese words to describe the particular role a person plays, stance, throw, strike, drill, etc. Where discussions of a self defense drill might refer to an "attacker", "enemy", "opponent", "bad guy", etc., in the Japanese arts I always see it referred to as "uke". In other cases, I've seen really complicated sentences in English to describe a technique, and seen someone in another art use a simple one- or two-word phrase to describe the same technique.

The main advantage I see of this style is that if someone goes to Japan for a seminar, they will know a lot of what is being said already, even if they don't speak the language, because they hear all of the techniques in that language. Where I'm worried that if I go to Korea, I won't understand much of what's going on, because I will not have learned the techniques in Korean.

These are just some thoughts I had. What do you guys think? Have you trained both ways? Did you find one easier or harder? Which do you prefer?

I like being taught in a foreign language and explained in english. It's like a free mini language class. The other thing I like is that some words don't translate well in english, so in that case the original world captures the meaning better.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I give instructions in English, but I use Korean for stances/techniques/etc. By that, I mean I'll tell someone to get in a basic ready stance (kibon jumbi seogi) or a back stance (dwit kubi) or pushing hands ready stance (tong milgi jumbi seogi). That's the same convention I use in my books; give the English and Korean terms.
We count in English or Korean, or (depending on which students are in class) Spanish or Czech or binary.
Students are not required to speak Korean, but we do expect them to understand some simple basic terms.
Learning the language can help with understanding the culture of the people who developed our arts, and if you're studying a Koryu art, where the emphasis is on preserving the art unchanged, then I can see it as a mandatory part of that preservation. But other than that, I can't see any reason why learning another language would affect your ability to punch, kick, or grapple.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

During online discussion, it's impolite to use Chinese terms, Japanese terms, or Korean terms "without translation". If you assume others can understand those languages, or you assume it's their responsibility to Google the English translation, it's impolite.

Everybody understand the term "hip throw". Not everybody understand what "O Goshi" or "Wen" is.

 

[pdg]

The main advantage I see of this style is that if someone goes to Japan for a seminar, they will know a lot of what is being said already, even if they don't speak the language, because they hear all of the techniques in that language. Where I'm worried that if I go to Korea, I won't understand much of what's going on, because I will not have learned the techniques in Korean.

Yeah, don't count on that...

There is a HUGE difference in pronunciation between practitioners and instructors who don't have the actual language background and are simply using it as a terminology.

In class, that's no issue at all.

In visiting other classes where it's a terminology and not a language, it's probably no issue at all.

Talk to a native (or fluent) Korean speaker - and what you think is you saying "side kick" might actually be "debase the beef canoe" (Buffy reference )

 

[JR 137]

Were very heavy on Japanese terminology. All counting is in Japanese, all moves are said in Japanese (and often times immediately followed by the English term for it). As we progress in rank, the English terms for most things are dropped. My CI starts virtually every class the same way after the stretching - “Yoi. Right foot back, zenkutsu dachi, both hands down. Mae keiogi/front stretch kick. Ichi, ni...” Finish those, then the next kick in Japanese. Then hand techniques. With the kids, he’ll always say the Japanese immediately followed by the English. With the adults, he’ll occasionally say the English after they’ve been around for several months. Funny thing is, there’s a bunch of techniques that I’m not quite sure if the lower ranks know the English for them, or at least a standardized English term for them.

When I first started in my first karate organization, I thought it wasn’t necessary and didn’t see the point. I also thought “great, not only do I have to actually learn how to do it, now I’ve got to learn the names for it in Japanese too.” I’m pretty good with languages, at least Latin based ones, so it wasn’t too bad (even though Japanese isn’t Latin based). It did cause a little anxiety, but not much. If I had it in my head that I wasn’t good with languages, it would’ve been worse. I grew to like it. I honestly wouldn’t feel right if we didn’t use them now. Something would be missing.

The Japanese terminology really helped me out recently. I went to our founder’s dojo for a class a few months back. Nakamura was born and raised in Japan, but has been here in the IS since about 1966. His accent is still very heavy and he’s pretty hard to understand at times. Combine that with an echoey dojo, and the only thing I understood at least half of the time was the Japanese terms. I understood 99% of those easily, and the ones I didn’t was because he pronounced them a bit differently than I’m used to. Hearing his pronunciation wasn’t too difficult to understand what he was saying though.

 

[JR 137]

Were very heavy on Japanese terminology. All counting is in Japanese, all moves are said in Japanese (and often times immediately followed by the English term for it). As we progress in rank, the English terms for most things are dropped. My CI starts virtually every class the same way after the stretching - “Yoi. Right foot back, zenkutsu dachi, both hands down. Mae keiogi/front stretch kick. Ichi, ni...” Finish those, then the next kick in Japanese. Then hand techniques. With the kids, he’ll always say the Japanese immediately followed by the English. With the adults, he’ll occasionally say the English after they’ve been around for several months. Funny thing is, there’s a bunch of techniques that I’m not quite sure if the lower ranks know the English for them, or at least a standardized English term for them.

When I first started in my first karate organization, I thought it wasn’t necessary and didn’t see the point. I also thought “great, not only do I have to actually learn how to do it, now I’ve got to learn the names for it in Japanese too.” I’m pretty good with languages, at least Latin based ones, so it wasn’t too bad (even though Japanese isn’t Latin based). It did cause a little anxiety, but not much. If I had it in my head that I wasn’t good with languages, it would’ve been worse. I grew to like it. I honestly wouldn’t feel right if we didn’t use them now. Something would be missing.

The Japanese terminology really helped me out recently. I went to our founder’s dojo for a class a few months back. Nakamura was born and raised in Japan, but has been here in the IS since about 1966. His accent is still very heavy and he’s pretty hard to understand at times. Combine that with an echoey dojo, and the only thing I understood at least half of the time was the Japanese terms. I understood 99% of those easily, and the ones I didn’t was because he pronounced them a bit differently than I’m used to. Hearing his pronunciation wasn’t too difficult to understand what he was saying though.

 

[hoshin1600]

With the Japanese or Okinawan language, it is vital to use those terms.....but only if you understand that language

But seriously, there is a need to use the native language because regardless of what one you use , meaning is lost in translation.
There are important nuances and in its native language that concept can be distilled down to a single word. So I will use the Japanese or Okinawan word. Besides lacking any direct English word I then have to make up my own words like INTELLMODUS. ... and I seem to make people laugh.

 

[skribs]

During online discussion, it's impolite to use Chinese terms, Japanese terms, or Korean terms "without translation". If you assume others can understand those languages, or you assume it's their responsibility to Google the English translation, it's impolite.

Everybody understand the term "hip throw". Not everybody understand what "O Goshi" or "Wen" is.

Tell that to the karate, aikido, and judo practitioners on this forum

Yeah, don't count on that...

There is a HUGE difference in pronunciation between practitioners and instructors who don't have the actual language background and are simply using it as a terminology.

In class, that's no issue at all.

In visiting other classes where it's a terminology and not a language, it's probably no issue at all.

Talk to a native (or fluent) Korean speaker - and what you think is you saying "side kick" might actually be "debase the beef canoe" (Buffy reference )

Unless the masters are mostly or all fluent speakers of the language.

 

[pdg]

Unless the masters are mostly or all fluent speakers of the language.

If that's the case then yes, it's different.

But over here it seems far less common that the instructors are native to the art's country of origin.

 

[frank raud]

I originally learned in a Kawaishi based jiu jitsu system. Kawaishi grouped techniques together, then numbered them. Back breakfall is number 1, side breakfall is number 2, etc. Very little in the way of Japanese terminology. When I switched to judo, had to learn the terminology in Japanese. If you think using native terminology will help when you visit Japan , as an example, you never learned the Japanese terminology from a French Canadian sensei who learned them from a Dutch sensei.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Everybody understand the term "hip throw".

Except there is more than one way to do a 'hip throw', so I don't think you can really count on this, other than in general terms. It's quite possible you'll need to include a video or a fairly detailed description of which hip throw you mean.

Yeah, don't count on that...

There is a HUGE difference in pronunciation between practitioners and instructors who don't have the actual language background and are simply using it as a terminology.

Very very true.

Talk to a native (or fluent) Korean speaker - and what you think is you saying "side kick" might actually be "debase the beef canoe" (Buffy reference )

Please don't talk about my beef canoe in public. It's embarrassing.

 

[jobo]

I speak English. I took 2 years of Spanish in high school and barely learned anything, and I retained even less. Languages do not come easy to me. From what I've seen, some martial arts taught in America will mostly use English for the names of the techniques and drills, while others will use the names of the techniques from the language in which the art originated.

Both Taekwondo schools I have gone to have used about 5% Korean and 95% English. At my school we use the Korean words for Attention, Bow, Ready Position, Return, and Focused Spirit Shout. We have maybe 2-3 techniques that we use the Korean word for (spearhand strike, double-knife hand block, diamond mountain block). We use the Korean names for the forms and count in Korean when we're stretching.

But everything else is done in English. 99% of the techniques of the form is done in English. We count the steps of the forms in English. We number our combinations in English. And all of the drills that we do are done in English.

Personally, I like this, because (as mentioned above) I am not good with languages. It's easy for me to link "front kick" with the action I need to take, where "ahp chaki" will require me to think "what does 'ahp chaki' mean?" before I apply it. There's a little bit of delay in my brain when I hear that. On the other hand, I respond right away to "Charyeot" and "Kyungrae" (attention and bow) so maybe I could learn those. But it still feels to me like it's easier for me to learn the art if I'm not also worried about the vocabulary.

On the other hand, I can see where in some cases it's more accurate to use the art's language. To me, it seems most people who train Japanese arts use mainly the Japanese words to describe the particular role a person plays, stance, throw, strike, drill, etc. Where discussions of a self defense drill might refer to an "attacker", "enemy", "opponent", "bad guy", etc., in the Japanese arts I always see it referred to as "uke". In other cases, I've seen really complicated sentences in English to describe a technique, and seen someone in another art use a simple one- or two-word phrase to describe the same technique.

The main advantage I see of this style is that if someone goes to Japan for a seminar, they will know a lot of what is being said already, even if they don't speak the language, because they hear all of the techniques in that language. Where I'm worried that if I go to Korea, I won't understand much of what's going on, because I will not have learned the techniques in Korean.

These are just some thoughts I had. What do you guys think? Have you trained both ways? Did you find one easier or harder? Which do you prefer?

When i watch, say ,the Japanese grand pre, ( F1) i ,by the mysteries Ofkodi, log on to a live ( and free) stream from japanese tv, with Japanese commentary, at first i thought this might be a problem, but no, english technical terms were every where,

So it Went, dadadada, pit stop, dadada over take, dadada new tyres, so if they can manage that and understand ut they should do the same for karate and use the english terms ibstead of clInging on to a dead language, better for every one i think

 

[Buka]

I teach American Karate in it's native language......but with a Boston accent so some don't recognize it as English.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Except there is more than one way to do a 'hip throw', so I don't think you can really count on this, other than in general terms. It's quite possible you'll need to include a video or a fairly detailed description of which hip throw you mean.

To describe a throw, "hand motion + leg (or body) motion" should be proper.

A hip throw can be named as:

- waist control hip throw.
- under hook hip throw.
- over hook hip throw.
- head lock hip throw.
- back head pushing hip throw.
- ...

 

[TSDTexan]

Were very heavy on Japanese terminology. All counting is in Japanese, all moves are said in Japanese (and often times immediately followed by the English term for it). As we progress in rank, the English terms for most things are dropped. My CI starts virtually every class the same way after the stretching - “Yoi. Right foot back, zenkutsu dachi, both hands down. Mae keiogi/front stretch kick. Ichi, ni...” Finish those, then the next kick in Japanese. Then hand techniques. With the kids, he’ll always say the Japanese immediately followed by the English. With the adults, he’ll occasionally say the English after they’ve been around for several months. Funny thing is, there’s a bunch of techniques that I’m not quite sure if the lower ranks know the English for them, or at least a standardized English term for them.

When I first started in my first karate organization, I thought it wasn’t necessary and didn’t see the point. I also thought “great, not only do I have to actually learn how to do it, now I’ve got to learn the names for it in Japanese too.” I’m pretty good with languages, at least Latin based ones, so it wasn’t too bad (even though Japanese isn’t Latin based). It did cause a little anxiety, but not much. If I had it in my head that I wasn’t good with languages, it would’ve been worse. I grew to like it. I honestly wouldn’t feel right if we didn’t use them now. Something would be missing.

The Japanese terminology really helped me out recently. I went to our founder’s dojo for a class a few months back. Nakamura was born and raised in Japan, but has been here in the IS since about 1966. His accent is still very heavy and he’s pretty hard to understand at times. Combine that with an echoey dojo, and the only thing I understood at least half of the time was the Japanese terms. I understood 99% of those easily, and the ones I didn’t was because he pronounced them a bit differently than I’m used to. Hearing his pronunciation wasn’t too difficult to understand what he was saying though.

same story here. virtually verbatim... except for the my first and second karate schools were Korean language based.

it can be problematic however, when your visiting another style of karate dojo... and they "say" Mikazuki Geri or outside crescent kick.... but you do an inside crescent kick... when everyone else is doing an outside crescent kick.

Why?

Because they used a different nomenclature for the technique.

Soto Mikazuki Geri
Inside Crescent Kick

Tradition A: We call it an inside Crescent Kick because it strikes the target with the inside edge of the foot.

Tradition B: We call it an Outside Crescent Kick because it ends the arc-motion on the outside of the
body, AFTER, it crosses the centerline.
In-to-out


Uchi Mikazuki Geri
Outside Crescent Kick

Tradition A: We call it an Outside Crescent Kick because it strikes the target with the Outside edge of the foot.
Tradition B: We call it an Inside Crescent Kick because it the arc-motion crosses the inside of the the centerline, after, beginning on the outside.
Out-to-in

It only matters if you can hear the commands/instructions given....
If you cannot... then its monkey see, monkee do.

God help you, if everyone you are following execute the wrong movements, at that moment.

Which is why i give a large amount attention span to listening at all times... and often ask to repeat the instruction if I didnt hear clearly.

Raising hands... thats a good secret.

 

[JR 137]

I teach American Karate in it's native language......but with a Boston accent so some don't recognize it as English.

It’s not English, it’s Masshole. Especially those guys from Athol.

 

[_Simon_]

Yep, dojo was always heavy on Japanese, I picked it up pretty quickly and understood it. And I definitely prefer it!

I like it as a way of standardising it too, so that if you travel to a different country and train, they'll still use the one language for techniques and it'll be easier to catch on.