Training half of martial arts bugs me.

[drop bear]

No, you've either misunderstood, or misrepresented, or both. I tend to think the latter, because your bias againt the term "Aikido" makes it difficult for you to read anything containing that word with any objectivity, and your dishonest "debate" methods often include apparently deliberate twisting of things people say.

If you want to disagree with what I say, I'm fine with that. But when you rephrase something to make it something I didn't say, then disagree with that, it's just laughable.

The last time you falsely accused me of this. I quoted where you said exactly what I said you said.

So are we going to start your playbook again?

Fine so the "I never said that game"

Ok. You show me where I have misrepresented you.

"Oh noes it is too hards you just have to believe me."

 

[drop bear]

Um, no. You're comparing folks over 50 in a population to another population. That's cherry-picking, at the least.

It doesn't change the demographic, just because you select part of the total to compare to.

And, yeah, 100% of people who are in a competititon group compete. That's post-selection. You're smarter than this crap, man.

And a culture of martial arts that doesn't compete won't compete regardless of the desire of any of its members or instructors.

How old are the students at your average ninja school?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And a culture of martial arts that doesn't compete won't compete regardless of the desire of any of its members or instructors.

Someone in another forum said, "I spar, but I don't compete."

I truly don't know the difference between

- spar/wrestle,
- beat someone up, and
- compete.

 

[drop bear]

Someone in another forum said, "I spar, but I don't compete."

I truly don't know the difference between

- spar/wrestle, and
- compete.

Competition is definable.so you can very quickly go from "I compete in the local white belt division and I compete in the UFC" and get a gauge of what people are talking about.

I spar could literally mean anything.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Competition is definable.so you can very quickly go from "I compete in the local white belt division and I compete in the UFC" and get a gauge of what people are talking about.

I spar could literally mean anything.

If you ask a stranger to spar/wrestle with you for 5 rounds, is that

- spar/wrestle, or
- compete?

 

[drop bear]

If you ask a stranger to spar with you for 5 rounds, is that

- spar, or
- compete?

Depends how strange he is. I have done both.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Depends how strange he is. I have done both.

For example, I knock on your front door and spar with you 5 rounds in your living room.

One can have N number of tournament winning record (official record). But before that, he may have M number of spar/wrestle winning record (non-official record).

You can test your skill in tournament (official record). You can also test your skill in local MMA gym (non-official record).

 

[drop bear]

For example, I knock on your front door and spar with you 5 rounds in your living room.

One can have N number of tournament winning record (official record). But before that, he may have M number of spar/wrestle winning record (non-official record).

You can test your skill in tournament (official record). You can also test your skill in local MMA gym (non-official record).

Yes but I can beat up a thousand chumps in a street fight And get handled by everyone in that gym.

It depends what sort of fighting you are doing to get that record. Official or unofficial.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yes but I can beat up a thousand chumps in a street fight And get handled by everyone in that gym.

It depends what sort of fighting you are doing to get that record. Official or unofficial.

If you compete in a

- tournament, you will get 1st place, 2nd place, 3rd place, ... trophy for your official record.
- local MMA gym, what kind of official record will you get?

 

[drop bear]

If you compete in a

- tournament, you will get 1st place, 2nd place, 3rd place, ... trophy for your official record.
- local MMA gym, what kind of official record will you get?

You will get no record. Nobody will really be able to gauge how authentically you are sparring without a video.

 

[drop bear]

If you compete in a

- tournament, you will get 1st place, 2nd place, 3rd place, ... trophy for your official record.
- local MMA gym, what kind of official record will you get?

So say I went to Tiger muay thai and sparred.

I would not do very well.

Where if I went to Barry's krav maga I would probably do a lot better.

It is unlikely my ability is what changes these two outcomes.

But this is exactly what we are suggesting when we say " I spar" without qualifying that statement.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

- Tournament has official record.
- Spar/wrestle has no official record.

Both are competition.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Self confidence is a good thing, and false confidence is not. I think what you're referring to is more like self-esteem, which I would say is a little different. This is, more than anything, what bothers me about a lot of "self defense' training. Confidence, in general, is a great way to build self esteem. But when that confidence is tested, if you can do what you believe you can do, it will actually build your confidence and, consequently, strengthen your self esteem. Conversely, if you cannot do what you think, that false confidence can be devastating. Physically (in this case) because in a self defense situation, the skills you were relying on are not there. And also emotionally, because you realize in a moment that you are not who you thought.

Big picture, I don't have any problem with any training. Do what you want, as long as you're having fun and doing no harm to others. But when you call is self defense training, that's entering into an area where the stakes are raised. Simply put, selling that you're having fun, horsing around, learning some stuff, trying things out, staying fit, building a sense of community, and being a part of a group... that's all wonderful. And for most people, that's probably all they want or need. But at the end of the day, if you say it's all of those things AND a self defense system, it needs to function as a self defense system.

In fact, I think NOT referring to or selling NGA as a self defense (i.e., fighting) system could actually make it MORE effective for self defense (i.e, making people safer).

I agree with the vast majority of what you say here. You and I mostly differ on what folks expect from self-defense-oriented training, and what that even is. NGA is a fighting system, and I teach it as such. The students have a responsibility for their decisions, and that is part of the training, as well. The more they want to get out, the more they need to "give" in those decisions.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No that is proportionately more of the general older population than your sample.

So when I said BJJ is basically open to everyone. And you countered with this selection bias nonsense your argument was that NGA has more old people.

And it doesn't. Because BJJ is a bigger, better and more accurate sample of the general community.

I could find smaller more niche martial arts with a predominantly younger population who don't compete as well. But they would not be good examples.

And that would be because it is the culture of the organization to not compete. Not this genetic difference or whatever.

Definitely not because for some reason those smaller niche organizations just happens to have attracted people incapable of competition.

We can even look at program like the wimp to warrior that take random selections of people from most ages and makes them compete.

Your issue is specific to NGA. And it is a culture issue. Which you are using selection bias as an excuse.

You are really, really bad at statistics. This explains some of your difficulties with evidence.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The last time you falsely accused me of this. I quoted where you said exactly what I said you said.

So are we going to start your playbook again?

Fine so the "I never said that game"

Ok. You show me where I have misrepresented you.

"Oh noes it is too hards you just have to believe me."

You know, I started a very long reply to this. I'm going to keep it short. Look back at post #472. I just went back to a page in the past and looked for one - it was the first post I happened upon where you replied to me. Took me seconds. I could find more, but listing all of them from just this thread would, in fact, be more work than it's worth.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And a culture of martial arts that doesn't compete won't compete regardless of the desire of any of its members or instructors.

How old are the students at your average ninja school?

I agree. A culture that discourages competition will attract nobody who wishes to compete, and will dissuade those who might, but aren't really motivated that way. That's like the environment I came up under in NGA. I prefer an environment where competition is encouraged.

What I do disagree with is the implication in your first sentence that someone who wishes to compete will not compete if they join that culture. More likely, they'll either not join it, or will leave it. That's the selection process I was talking about.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Someone in another forum said, "I spar, but I don't compete."

I truly don't know the difference between

- spar/wrestle,
- beat someone up, and
- compete.

I tend to agree with you. Sparring and formal competition (if both use similar rulesets) are versions of the same thing. There's likely to be (but not guaranteed to be) more intensity and a better talent pool at the formal competition, but they are similar.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Competition is definable.so you can very quickly go from "I compete in the local white belt division and I compete in the UFC" and get a gauge of what people are talking about.

I spar could literally mean anything.

"I compete" needs definition, too. Two people rolling under IBJJ rules (I assume that's the right body) are doing something pretty similar to competing at a local IBJJ-ruleset competition. There are differences, but (as I said in my reply to KFW's post), those aren't guaranteed. If someone draws me in a BJJ tournament (a rusty non-BJJ'er with limited ground experience) they aren't getting nearly as good a test on the ground as if they are rolling at their gym, if that gym is somplace like where @Tony Dismukes teaches.

 

[Steve]

"I compete" needs definition, too. Two people rolling under IBJJ rules (I assume that's the right body) are doing something pretty similar to competing at a local IBJJ-ruleset competition. There are differences, but (as I said in my reply to KFW's post), those aren't guaranteed. If someone draws me in a BJJ tournament (a rusty non-BJJ'er with limited ground experience) they aren't getting nearly as good a test on the ground as if they are rolling at their gym, if that gym is somplace like where @Tony Dismukes teaches.

Yeah, depends on where you choose to compete. Doesn’t it? I mean, are you going to enter as a white belt, blue belt, or higher? I would presume white belt, at least to start. So, if someone else is competing as a white belt, they wouldn’t expect you to be highly skilled. At white belt, you have a huge range of aggressiveness and athleticism. Some guys have some complimentary skills they carried over from wrestling, but no white belt has very good technique.

I don’t know your relative skill level, so maybe you’d be competitive at blue belt... I’d guess you’d get murdered at purple belt. But who knows? And really, isn’t the the heart of the issue?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah, depends on where you choose to compete. Doesn’t it? I mean, are you going to enter as a white belt, blue belt, or higher? I would presume white belt, at least to start. So, if someone else is competing as a white belt, they wouldn’t expect you to be highly skilled. At white belt, you have a huge range of aggressiveness and athleticism. Some guys have some complimentary skills they carried over from wrestling, but no white belt has very good technique.

I don’t know your relative skill level, so maybe you’d be competitive at blue belt... I’d guess you’d get murdered at purple belt. But who knows? And really, isn’t the the heart of the issue?

On my past experience, I'd say you're right. At one time, I could hold my defense pretty well against a purple belt, but I was personally training more then than I do now. I couldn't get many submissions, but I could prevent a lot of theirs. Now, while I'm probably better at conserving motion (and energy), I'm also likely to miss some of the cues and be late on counters. And I'm not a ground specialist, so I'd hope a BJJ purple belt would always have the upper hand on the ground.

How do I know this? Because I've rolled with folks, so know what my level was around them. It doesn't take a formal competition to find that out.

My point, though, was about the wide range of things that can be encountered in competition, including a wide range of skills. At an open competition, you may not run into the same level of skill you'd find at a consistently good gym/dojo.