Training half of martial arts bugs me.

[Gerry Seymour]

No. It is completely unknown when you say sparring or resisted training what you mean.

And you do that on purpose.

You have created another weasel word.

There is a single best here. And that is evidence of what level you spar at. That is better than no evidence. Better than weasel words. Better than hypotheticals, stories and rationalisations.

This is binary.

Something is better than nothing.

You're hilarious. Now "sparring" is a weasel word??? Next you'll be saying "fight" is a weasel word, because people mean different things by it. Dude, you're being obnoxious in your attempt to make me wrong. You REALLY REALLY have a bug up your butt about my training. I don't know what's so personal about it to you, but it's hilarious.

Yeah, there's a continuum. If you want to know what I mean by it, you're always free to ask.

And no, it's not binary. There is no single best.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To use striking in the manner suggested you have to win the striking exchange. Not just dab at the concept. Which basically means you have to box at some point with guys who have half an idea on how to fight.

Is that something you do,

My first NGA instructor was a former Golden Gloves boxer. My second and third instructors were both trained by him. I've had training partners who were experienced competitors in other combat sports. I've taken the time to spar with a few folks who were also experienced in combat sports. This is all stuff you should already know, since I've told it to you before.

I never bothered to compete, because it never interested me. I wish I had, looking back, because I'd have profited by the experience. But I'm not an inept striker, as you seem to have assumed (based on whatever you've imagined).

But because I teach with a self-defense orientation, using a base art that has the word Aikido in it, you assume I'm something without evidence. Because bias.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok. So when we look at videos of mat Thornton, rokus and my own experience. You will see this consistent idea that an average blue belt generally handles everyone who walks in the door regardless as to their previous experience.

The Mat Thornton one is quite specific and it shows high level krav maga guys being schooled in basically krav maga. By people with about a year of training.


What this is designed to point out is If I am a high level krav guy. And my method works because sparring or resisted training. I may be getting a false result as the collective standard really isn't there.

I have a lot more success with techniques when I spar people who can't fight. I do not use those sparring sessions to justify consistency of success.

OK

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

My first NGA instructor's main tenet was, "If they want to box, I'll grapple. If they want to grapple, I'll box." It's essentially the same thing your'e saying here: don't play to their strengths if you're not stronger there.

I'd agree with that, but only if you're good at both.

I'm not a good grappler, so my solution is to make them want to grapple, while I strike, and avoid the grappling attempts. Learned that from a judo/sambo school that did 1 hour sparring a night rather than, y'know, just learning the art like a good little boy should.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'd agree with that, but only if you're good at both.

I'm not a good grappler, so my solution is to make them want to grapple, while I strike, and avoid the grappling attempts. Learned that from a judo/sambo school that did 1 hour sparring a night rather than, y'know, just learning the art like a good little boy should.

He was a former Golden Gloves boxer, and most of his training after college was in grappling, so he was really comfortable on both sides. I'm more of a grappler at heart, but have worked enough on my striking to be comfortable crossing to that side against a grappler, if only to help create openings or control space until I enter.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

He was a former Golden Gloves boxer, and most of his training after college was in grappling, so he was really comfortable on both sides. I'm more of a grappler at heart, but have worked enough on my striking to be comfortable crossing to that side against a grappler, if only to help create openings or control space until I enter.

That makes sense. If you're good at both that's the idea. But if you do have a specialty, finding a way to make use of it is often smarter than trying to change your style based on the opponents.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Yeah. But that would be like saying traditional jujitsu is like judo.
Just with more Kata and no emphasis on live training.

While Daito Ryu has a fairly recent history, its hybrid components stretch back a few hundred years, encompassing the warring Samurai years, if my limited knowledge of this art is correct. This was a time of military martial arts when the combatants wore armor, rendering striking less effective. So, hand to hand combat entailed more ju-jutsu/aikido-like techniques utilizing locks, throws and breaks. (Admittedly, modern aikido and judo are watered down.) Being military in nature, and not just civil combat, death or maiming was the desired result. Just something to think about when discussing the roots of certain arts.

 

[dvcochran]

What this is designed to point out is If I am a high level krav guy. And my method works because sparring or resisted training. I may be getting a false result as the collective standard really isn't there.

I have a lot more success with techniques when I spar people who can't fight. I do not use those sparring sessions to justify consistency of success.

This is logical thinking and part of where your bias comes from I think. Even within your own training/sparring you omit the bad sessions.
You have to admit there is bad MMA out there. Simply, some people can and some people cannot perform well no matter what the format. But you never include this in the averages when you do your samplings/analytics. It is apparent that your data is Always only from the good/great MMA and from the bad TMA. How is this accurate?

I am a long time TKD guy with a great track record in competition. Never once did I think our sparring rules/format were the 'end all' best for all situations. No such thing exist. The same can be said of boxing or wrestling (generalists) down to your specifics of choice. Just like in your style there are rules you have to abide by.
Your style is an evolution and amalgamation of all it's precedent's. A good thing. Bashing where your style evolved from is counterproductive and down right illogical. Everything done in MMA originated from somewhere else. This is undisputed.

I find it curious that I Only hear such rhetoric from MMA guys for the most part. Of course if I go to Sherdog or some other MMA forum that is about all you hear. I do not know where the 'us against the rest of the MA world' thinking got started but it is an engrained, fundamental part of your style that is a useless component. A lot of time wasted there.

Believe me, I understand the 'getting up' for a match mentality. Training your energy and aggression into an ally and usable tool was a long process for me because I had a Lot of anger and aggression. Why does MMA make this so overt? I certainly remember the times before a match when I thought I was going to pop and had to reel things back to stay within the ruleset. I get it.
Possibly you have not been on both the winning side And losing side of competition/training to understand both have there place and value.

 

[drop bear]

You're hilarious. Now "sparring" is a weasel word??? Next you'll be saying "fight" is a weasel word, because people mean different things by it. Dude, you're being obnoxious in your attempt to make me wrong. You REALLY REALLY have a bug up your butt about my training. I don't know what's so personal about it to you, but it's hilarious.

Yeah, there's a continuum. If you want to know what I mean by it, you're always free to ask.

And no, it's not binary. There is no single best.

It is awkward for me these days to understand faith based training and the mental gymnastics that go in to justifying it.

It would be the same if you were advocating healing crystals with no evidence.

I honestly just don't understand how you develop without a method of discerning truth from fiction.

And outrage isn't a counter argument. It is unfortunate that you are upset but that does not make me wrong.

"Yeah, there's a continuum. If you want to know what I mean by it, you're always free to ask."

Ok. At what level do you spar?

Do you have a video?

 

[drop bear]

This is logical thinking and part of where your bias comes from I think. Even within your own training/sparring you omit the bad sessions.
You have to admit there is bad MMA out there. Simply, some people can and some people cannot perform well no matter what the format. But you never include this in the averages when you do your samplings/analytics. It is apparent that your data is Always only from the good/great MMA and from the bad TMA. How is this accurate?

The top mma guys don't do bad MMA though because it is self regulating. Who are the top five self defense guys? Who have they fought?

And no I separate good evidence based training from bad faith based training. That is why the TMA always looks bad. There is good TMA. But they will generally train evidence based.

Now it is just easier to find faith based training in TMA and self defense than a sports combat system. This is because of your denial to adopt a process that separates fact from fiction.

There is bad MMA but it is easy to tell bad MMA without having to jump through all these apparent hoops that people have created to disguise bad faith based martial arts.

 

[drop bear]

While Daito Ryu has a fairly recent history, its hybrid components stretch back a few hundred years, encompassing the warring Samurai years, if my limited knowledge of this art is correct. This was a time of military martial arts when the combatants wore armor, rendering striking less effective. So, hand to hand combat entailed more ju-jutsu/aikido-like techniques utilizing locks, throws and breaks. (Admittedly, modern aikido and judo are watered down.) Being military in nature, and not just civil combat, death or maiming was the desired result. Just something to think about when discussing the roots of certain arts.

For the purpose of this discussion I just want to see it work.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

For the purpose of this discussion I just want to see it work.

Agree with you 100% there. Spar or wrestle 15 rounds and record the result is always a good evidence based.

Testing, testing, and more testing. Is that what we have heard on TV everyday?

Besides general testing, the special testing is also important. In the following clip. the testing rule is:

- If A can punch on B's head, A wins that round.
- If B can obtain a head lock on A before A's punch can land on B's head, B wins that rounds.

In this test, the result is 3-0 and B wins.

I have always believed that you may repeat partner drill 10,000 times, but without testing, that technique is still not yours.

 

[drop bear]

I find it curious that I Only hear such rhetoric from MMA guys for the most part. Of course if I go to Sherdog or some other MMA forum that is about all you hear. I do not know where the 'us against the rest of the MA world' thinking got started but it is an engrained, fundamental part of your style that is a useless component. A lot of time wasted there.

A lot of time being ripped off and lied to by con artists in an environment that positively supports that process by refusing to hold themselves accountable.

Look up the aikido vs mma video and follow that process. Many of us go from martial arts that promise everything and deliver nothing.

 

[drop bear]

Spare or wrestle for 15 rounds and record the result is always a good evidence based.

Testing, testing, and more testing. Is that what we can hear on TV everyday?

Yeah. That works.

As I said I can link you to a karate school that trains honestly. That is what Facebook is for.

Fitzroy Martial Arts

Does karate work?
Yes.

Look at the videos. See evidence. And the question is answered in one post.

That would be an example of an ethical school.

 

[dvcochran]

The top mma guys don't do bad MMA though because it is self regulating. Who are the top five self defense guys? Who have they fought?

And no I separate good evidence based training from bad faith based training. That is why the TMA always looks bad. There is good TMA. But they will generally train evidence based.

Now it is just easier to find faith based training in TMA and self defense than a sports combat system. This is because of your denial to adopt a process that separates fact from fiction.

There is bad MMA but it is easy to tell bad MMA without having to jump through all these apparent hoops that people have created to disguise bad faith based martial arts.

There is a huge difference between lack of knowledge and 'faith based'. I have never heard that term in regards to MA's from anyone or anywhere else. Something it appears you use to support your argument. If there was consistent validity it may hold water. The hard fact is Everything you hang your hat on originated from TMA or a derivative. Yes, there is crap in all styles/systems, including MMA but there is no escaping this fact. So condemning that which creates you is beyond ludicrous. That you only involve the 'evidence' you choose to use supports the fact that your argument does not hold water much of the time. Some of the time? Yes. All of the time? A foolish assertion and assumption that you have wholly bought into, I assume you are heavily influenced by your piers and environment. Not uncommon but still wrong.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

'faith based'. I have never heard that term in regards to MA's from anyone or anywhere else.

When I was 11, my brother in law taught me to dig a small hole. I stood inside the hole and tried to jump up. The hole was so small that I could only bend my knee 1/2 way. My brother in law told me that if I could jump out of that hole when the depth was about my chest height, I should have no problem to jump on top of the roof. He also told me that his father could do it. Also one of his brothers could do it too. Since he could not do it (to prove in front of my eyes), I lose faith in that training method.

 

[drop bear]

There is a huge difference between lack of knowledge and 'faith based'. I have never heard that term in regards to MA's from anyone or anywhere else. Something it appears you use to support your argument. If there was consistent validity it may hold water. The hard fact is Everything you hang your hat on originated from TMA or a derivative. Yes, there is crap in all styles/systems, including MMA but there is no escaping this fact. So condemning that which creates you is beyond ludicrous. That you only involve the 'evidence' you choose to use supports the fact that your argument does not hold water much of the time. Some of the time? Yes. All of the time? A foolish assertion and assumption that you have wholly bought into, I assume you are heavily influenced by your piers and environment. Not uncommon but still wrong.

So if the term faith based was a more popular term you would accept it?

Because of faith?

And nobody else produces evidence. You argued against having to produce any at all. Instead hoping that the free market. (Popular opinion) would support valid claims over invalid ones. A hope that is based again on faith.

I am having conversation with people who refuse to think rationally about this subject.

Maybe you are more familiar with the term bullcrap.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is awkward for me these days to understand faith based training and the mental gymnastics that go in to justifying it.

It would be the same if you were advocating healing crystals with no evidence.

I honestly just don't understand how you develop without a method of discerning truth from fiction.

And outrage isn't a counter argument. It is unfortunate that you are upset but that does not make me wrong.

"Yeah, there's a continuum. If you want to know what I mean by it, you're always free to ask."

Ok. At what level do you spar?

Do you have a video?

Firstly, I’m wondering where you get “I’m upset” from “hilarious”. Or are you just assigning me the emotion you want me to have, just as you’ve been assigning me the training you want me to have?

To the rest...nope, no video. It has never seemed important to me to have any. I’ve certainly missed some opportunities to analyze.

But I’ve sparred. Mostly light, mostly technical. Occasionally at moderate intensity or higher. Rarely at full contact levels. Probably about the same levels most common everywhere else. Mostly for a chance to see what works and where I’m vulnerable. And more striking than grappling. When it’s grappling, more groundwork than standing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

For the purpose of this discussion I just want to see it work.

Why?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A lot of time being ripped off and lied to by con artists in an environment that positively supports that process by refusing to hold themselves accountable.

Look up the aikido vs mma video and follow that process. Many of us go from martial arts that promise everything and deliver nothing.

So you assume others do that, too?