Training for competition vs. the street

jarrod

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It's funny, but if you think about self defense, I'm not sure that biting or elbows to the face are all that good. Think about the UFC and the elbows... honestly, I'd advocate that they be banned from the UFC precisely because they often result in a premature stoppage. You see guys who are "fine". They're ready to go except that they got cut and the doctor stops the fight. The cut isn't dangerous, nor is it affecting the fighter and "on the street" he'd likely continue fighting without a second thought. While it's possible, elbows on the ground aren't any more likely to end a fight than a punch, even if they have a strong chance of opening a cut.

Biting is another one. Unless you can take a finger or something equally damaging you're likely escalating the situation with the distinct possibility that you aren't improving your situation at all.

The above aren't written as questions, but to be clear, I don't train for self defense, per se, so I'm really throwing these out for discussion. What do you guys think?

i don't know that all elbow stoppages are premature....it's hard to fight when there's too much blood in your eyes to see. yes, the guy could physically continue, but the odds of him winning are slim. attackers aren't fighting for fame or a paycheck, they are typically looking for an easy target (if we're talking about true SD here & not a bar fight or something). not every SD tech has to incapacitate, being a difficult target is often enough. some people just get plain discouraged when they get a couple thumps & see a puddle of their own blood.

i agree with you about biting though, it is a last-ditch effort in my play book. all "dirty fighting" tactics (which i am a big fan of) should be secondary to core fighting/competition skills, imo. eye gouges, biting, pinching, all that stuff can help you, but you can't count on it to win the day.

Not at all related to the topic but love the new avatar Jarrod! Is that Argentina? Looks like it to me.

thanks man! that pic is from gray's peak right here in colorado. would love to hike south america sometime, i've heard nothing but good things.

jf
 

Steve

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I think of things from a womans perpective, if I'm stuck underneath my putting elbows up and grinding them in an eye or even mouth helps. As a woman there are few single strikes that will ever stop a fight against a man so it has to be a collection of everything and anything, the important thing to me is to keep fighting, moving and hoping to get a chance to break away and get the hell out of there. I don't imagine I'm ever going to win a fight against a 16st man for example but what I'm aiming to do is cause damage and get out alive then......then come back with others and fill him in lol!
Biting leaves marks that can be matched to help catch the attacker so is worth doing even if it doesn't cause much damage, you just need to leave your teeth marks.
This makes sense. I hadn't looked at the possibility of causing damage for later identification. That's brilliant. :)
The problem with the UFC is thats it's not the worlds best promotion,
Oh, stop it. They are the best, although the winds of change are swirling. As Strikeforce signs more top fighters (like Dan Henderson) there may finally be viable competition for the UFC, which would be good for MMA world wide.

But right now, they are hands down the best at this point and time. This isn't to say that there aren't very good fighters in other organizations. It's simply saying that the stable of fighters in the UFC/WEC organization is as a collective at a clearly higher level with deeper divisions than any other in the world. I just don't see how anyone could even try to argue otherwise. But, maybe that's a topic for another day.
the stopping of guys with cuts is usually a wrong decision by the ref or the management We've found that elbows rarely cause the cuts, the edges of the gloves do, Fairtex especially along with a couple of other brands. A good cutman can stop it enough for the fighter to carry on, the UFC makes decisions that wouldn't be made elsewhere.
I've seen more nasty, deep cuts opened by an errant elbow than in any other way combined. And if they're above the eye impeding the fighter's vision, the doctors tend to stop it. That's not just in the UFC, either.

Now, things may be different in the UK, but in the States, the only exception to this would be maybe an unsanctioned, seedy event. Anything above board would end in a doctor's stoppage if the cut is bleeding into the fighter's eye. The fighter has to get to the end of the round before the cutman can do anything, and usually, even if that does happen, the cut gets reopened, usually worse than before, and the fight gets stopped.

All of that being said, I've never seen a fight ended from an elbow OTHER than from a cut. Elbows just don't end fights often, if at all. I've seen more fights end from a spinning backfist (two) than from any kind of knockout from an elbow strike (other than tko due to a cut).

In a self defense situation, I just wouldn't rely on an elbow. The only real legit consideration is as Jarrod says, which is more mental than physical. Basically, demoralizing your attacker by making him bleed.

This is all simply my opinion. :D
 

Steve

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i don't know that all elbow stoppages are premature....it's hard to fight when there's too much blood in your eyes to see.
By premature, I really simply mean that the fighter could fight. And I would disagree about the fighter's chances. I can think of fights where this is true... the fighter is getting his *** handed to him and the cut is only the coup de grace. Other times, though, the exact opposite is true. The fighter who gets cut is game and in fact winning the fight hands down until what amounts to an errant elbow ends the fight.
 

jarrod

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never seen elbows end a fight?

well, i'm digging all the way back to ufc 2 here, but here goes...

 
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Steve

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never seen elbows end a fight?

well, i'm digging all the way back to ufc 2 here, but here goes...

LOL... okay. You got me. But the spinning backfist is still the more reliable technique. :D
 
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jarrod

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By premature, I really simply mean that the fighter could fight. And I would disagree about the fighter's chances. I can think of fights where this is true... the fighter is getting his *** handed to him and the cut is only the coup de grace. Other times, though, the exact opposite is true. The fighter who gets cut is game and in fact winning the fight hands down until what amounts to an errant elbow ends the fight.

i know what you mean, but if you're bleeding so bad you can't see, you're probably going to lose no matter how bad you were kicking the guy's *** before. don't get me wrong, i don't "like" when a fight gets stopped on cuts due to a couple elbows. but i'm one of the guys who is still mad they took out head butts & soccer kicks. i hate to see it prohibited just because it is an effective technique. besides, usually when effective techs are removed, it adversely effects the rest of the game.

jf
 

Steve

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i know what you mean, but if you're bleeding so bad you can't see, you're probably going to lose no matter how bad you were kicking the guy's *** before. don't get me wrong, i don't "like" when a fight gets stopped on cuts due to a couple elbows. but i'm one of the guys who is still mad they took out head butts & soccer kicks. i hate to see it prohibited just because it is an effective technique. besides, usually when effective techs are removed, it adversely effects the rest of the game.

jf
I'm with you! If I had my druthers, I'd ban elbows and headbutts but unban soccer kicks, all for the reasons we've discussed. Soccer kicks are effective fight enders. Anyone who's seen Shogun Rua or Wanderlei in Pride knows that! :)
 

punisher73

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Just to throw this out there....

There are many people out there who freak at the sight of their own blood. If you open up a big cut, it can give you a psychological advantage.

Not saying this happens across the board, but I have seen many "tough guys" freak when the blood flowed.
 

frank raud

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Flea, now that we have the UFC discussion out of the way,is there any competition in Systema? Any touraments?
 
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Flea, now that we have the UFC discussion out of the way,is there any competition in Systema? Any touraments?

Ironically, I probably wouldn't be the one to ask about that. I'm a total novice to MA in general, and I've only been at Systema for one year. There are other Systema practitioners on MT who are much more accomplished than I, and I'll defer to them.
 

Gaius Julius Caesar

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I have heard about people taping in the street and being let go only to come back for more.

Here is one way to combat that potential.

In our Dojo, we have single tap, double tap and rapid tapping and yelling "Abort!"

1 tap means "You have me, but you can work the technique or transition to another." 2 taps means " You have me, I am about to be hurt, no more pressure." and then Nage S-L-O-W-L-Y lets Uke out of whatever he is in and finally rapid tapping (Going John Bonham as I call it) and yelling 'Abort!" means you are going to mess me up let go now!"

This way if someone outside does tap, you don't immeidiatly let the guy go.

We always make clear that submissons are largly for the Dojo and for Compititions, in the street you generally snap through the joint and if a man does submit to you, keep him in blinding pain and let him know that A- You own his life, he only lives because you will it. B- He makes any hostile moves and you will end him C- ***If no one is around and it was a particularly nasty attack*** Break a couple fingers or his thumb anyways and give him a swift kick as you back away, deploy a weapon and tell him "You get up and you will die."

The last time I had to get physical was at a concert and a guy took a swing at me. I entered him. pinned his foot with mine and put him in a front choke, with my head pushing his sideways and back and then I droped down a little more than a foot so he could feel his neck about to crunch. I said "We don't really want to do this? Do we!?" I let up enough to let him answer "No Dude." I slowly let him stand up, slowly let of the choke/crank, put a hand on his left shoulder and grabbed his right hand , gave him a shake and stepped back.

The hand on the shoulder and the handshake were a set up if he even seemed like he was about to reengage me.
 

jarrod

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another vote for competition; all good competitors know not to let go until the ref peels you off! :D

good idea though, good way to keep from developing a reflex to let go. i remember my very first judo match i caught my opponent in an armbar, he tapped, & i let go. the ref didn't see any of it! fortunately i had an honest opponent & he told the ref that he tapped. after that i decided to make sure i had the victory in hand before letting go.

jf
 

Tez3

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Rules here mean that if there's a cut the ref can stop the fight to have it attended to,the doc can look at it and if ok after being fixed the fight can continue.
In any fight whether competition or for real when your opponent/attacker taps you don't let go until either the ref tells you ( in comp) or your attacker is unable to carry on fighting ie you broke his arm etc.
 

Draven

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Well first off Flea, good job...

Now here is the thing yes competition can and does both help in hinder you psychologically and technically in self-defense. Technically because you have a resisting opponent you can train with & psycholoically because when under stree of confused you revert to training (which has an effect thats gets tapped into on a mental level). Reverting to competition mindset can get you killed under the wrong conditions and have zero effect in others. Under social violence it can have a pretty good effect so...

Criminal activety; mugging, rape, assault, robbery etc. is essentually a matter of Ability to Act against you, Opportunity to act against you & risk/reward associated with attacking you. As a smaller guy myself, I have pretty rough in the size = intimidation issue. Course I've won my nicknames of Mighty Mouse & Wolverine (after the animal not the X-man) because of my attitude. ;)

PS- Watch the love nips you might give someone the wrong impression.
 

repz

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I always seen it like this...

Martial Arts is in the name, an expression of war.

Martial arts uses various training principles to test certain techniques. Sparring being one of them (call it kumite, rolling, mma, etc.), sparring builds live response to random effects brought by a fully uncompliant opponent who is also responding live to your attempts to defeat him. Sparring, or more specifically boxing, kickboxing, mma, etc., is promoted for commercial reason to make profit.

Everything else after this is oppinion (well, that is if you agree up to this point).

But, I think if you see sparring as a benefit and supplement as training (and even more serious to reach higher levels of experience) as opposed to just being the whole sole basis of your art, then I think you would build on not only the attributes that sparring can build, but also work on self defense techniques that sports wont allow you to perform and on philsophies and concepts that sports dont follow in a one on one ring enviornment (like dealing with obstruction, dealing with more then one opponent, enviornment, weapons being used, etc.). Basically, I would prefer to patch up as many holes as possible by embracing both "worlds".

Also, using sports gear and rules to regulate human contact can do wonders for knife attacks and multiple opponent sparring to blend both to grow those attributes into other fields too.
 

ap Oweyn

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Hello, Real world...NO rules...one must do "whatever" it takes to suvive!

competitions...will train you to behave with rules...and someone taps out on the streets...may come back to kill you..!

As opposed to what? If you knock someone out, or kick them in the cash and prizes, or poke their eye, they could still come back. I think this is a distinction without a difference. If you stop short of killing someone, there's the chance they could come back. And if you kill them, that only opens the door to a whole host of other problems. Arrest, retribution from friends, whatever.

It's very easy to say that competition doesn't prepare you aptly because it has rules. But it's a bit of a cop out.

Besides, the idea that your training is so ingrained that you won't be able to make necessary adaptations (stories about people returning a disarmed knife to a real attacker because they're used to that from training, etc.) don't sound credible to me. Nor does letting go because someone tapped in a real fight. Taps work because the guy with the advantage lets it work. If the guy with the advantage wanted to choke the guy unconcious, dislocate a limb, or worse, there's nothing preventing that.

I think we have to be really careful about characterizing one group of practitioners as brilliant tacticians and the other as automatons programmed by operant conditioning.


Stuart
 

tempus

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I think both schools of training allow someone to defend themself. However, I do think if you train in one fashion or mindset with some techniques, when the time comes you will instinctively do what you have trained to do becasue that is what you know. This to me is based off the average person who trains a few hours a week. The mind set of a fighter, soldier, competition fighter who trains 8 hours+ a day, probably can react and think in an altercation.

For example I know someone who trained for years with no contact sparring. When he went to a contact sparring session he had problems hitting the person. He always ended about an inch from the person.

At 40 years old I have never been in a fight, fought a war or a serious physical confrontation (pushing, shoving, talking the talk does not count). From other life experiences I know I will shut down and focus only the situation and react from instinct. Hence when doing knife defenses I never hand the knife to anyone. I defend, take knife \ stick, look around, relax and throw it to the side for the next Uke to pick up and attack. That way I will not hand it to a stranger, or possible the attackers friend.

Just my random thoughts,

Gary
 

repz

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Everything is an assumption, no one can really predicate human behavior exactly, not even in science. Some people can completely shut down, and lose all technique, regardless of their training.

If I ever opened a school, I will try to avoid assumption, and just patch up any possibilities as possible. But, technique and training isnt the only factor for self defense, and in many schools this isnt addressed.


But, there is a reason why the military jumps on you literally, stressing you out and pushing you to the extreme hoping your crack,, because thats war. But I dont think Mom and Dad, or Avergae Joe wants to pay for serious training.
 

myusername

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Interesting thread, I've enjoyed reading peoples responses.

Personally I can say that I train for both "the street" and competition. In my Tae kwon-do we do spend a lot of time free sparring (which under TAGB rules is semi-contact all kicks above the waist.) I know that when I am free sparring I am not practicing self defence and that I am practicing for points, tournements and (hopefully) medals. There is no way that in a self defence situation I would employ a high hooking kick swiftly followed by a turning kick along the same line with the same leg before putting it down on the floor! I am not an idiot. I don't subscribe to the idea that because I do train free sparring regularly that under pressure I will respond as if I am free sparring with flicky, flicky point kicks. I know the difference and I am in a different mind set when I train for competiton.

My TKD instructor also includes a lot of self defence techniques (such as power slaps, low level kicks and take downs) in our classes. He is very good at highlighting what is for self defence and what isn't before we practice anything. This allows me the opportunity to shift my mind set into "this is for self defence" before learning it. Mind you I think I know the difference by now!

In my Jujutsu, we work our strikes from the fence. For example last night each training partner had a focus mitt in their lead hand and we went in turn with the attacker puffing their chests out and verbally abusing the defender. The defender will attempt to de-esculate from the fence position whilst the attacker shows his focus pad at head height as a target. The defender then asks a distracting question (such as "Do you know Phil?) and throws four heavy handed palm heel strikes to the focus pad. That is for self defence and I am confident that in a self defence situation I would fall back on such a technique rather than go for the hooking kick option!

I suppose what I am trying to say with this post is that most martial arts consists of a variety techniques that range from realistic to fanciful. Lots of martial arts have a competition element and as long as the student knows which is for real and which is for fun and trains with the appropriate mind set for each then it should not impact on their ability to defend themselves.

You can train for both in the same class.


PS: I would like to say well done to Flea! I lurk a bit on this forum every now and again and remember reading a fair few posts where you were talking of struggling with grappling. Good on you for conquering your fears. :)
 
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