Training disarms with a laser cartridge

[Runs With Fire]

Anybody ever do this? My krav instructor loaded his carry piece with a laser cartridge (one of the ones that turns on for a split second when the firing pin strikes it) and had us take a number of goes with it. It was a fairly static start. Gunman presents gun with arms fully extended. Gun within four feet of defenders body. Defender has hands raised. The drill is to try and shoot them when they first move. It was not too easy. To make matters worse, the rest of class watched to look for where the red dot hit. It was about 50/50 at first, with much improvement at the end. I'm pretty sure every time, the gun fired. It was a good experience.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm not a fan of using any firearm for this purpose that ever holds actual ammo. A real gun, painted to be distinguishable and with the mag well blocked? Maybe.

Anyway, it's not a bad drill, though it's tough to be sure you're seeing that little dot every time. I've wanted to try this with marking cartridges, though you'd have to be aware of collateral damage (both observers and objects/walls).

EDIT: I'm not wild about the "shoot when they first move" instruction. It changes the dynamic. I prefer setting a scenario that makes the gunman have to decide if the movement is threatening or not - such as asking for a wallet, or demanding they move to a certain area.

 

[Runs With Fire]

I'm not a fan of using any firearm for this purpose that ever holds actual ammo. A real gun, painted to be distinguishable and with the mag well blocked? Maybe.

Anyway, it's not a bad drill, though it's tough to be sure you're seeing that little dot every time. I've wanted to try this with marking cartridges, though you'd have to be aware of collateral damage (both observers and objects/walls).

EDIT: I'm not wild about the "shoot when they first move" instruction. It changes the dynamic. I prefer setting a scenario that makes the gunman have to decide if the movement is threatening or not - such as asking for a wallet, or demanding they move to a certain area.

It does bother me a little, but I think I am okay with it. We did it in a class with many newer students, so it was kept simple.

 

[wab25]

To make matters worse, the rest of class watched to look for where the red dot hit.

We did a similar thing, using simunition guns (we had an FBI swat team leader come in to work with us...) The whole class did watch to see where the simunition round went. The look on their face was a pretty good indication of whether they got hit or not. (if you were still unsure, the cursing that followed would tell you when they got hit...)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We did a similar thing, using simunition guns (we had an FBI swat team leader come in to work with us...) The whole class did watch to see where the simunition round went. The look on their face was a pretty good indication of whether they got hit or not. (if you were still unsure, the cursing that followed would tell you when they got hit...)

I've often thought about the value - and pain - of using simunitions. In the end, I mostly wuss out.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Anybody ever do this? My krav instructor loaded his carry piece with a laser cartridge (one of the ones that turns on for a split second when the firing pin strikes it) and had us take a number of goes with it. It was a fairly static start. Gunman presents gun with arms fully extended. Gun within four feet of defenders body. Defender has hands raised. The drill is to try and shoot them when they first move. It was not too easy. To make matters worse, the rest of class watched to look for where the red dot hit. It was about 50/50 at first, with much improvement at the end. I'm pretty sure every time, the gun fired. It was a good experience.

This is an idiotic thing to do with any gun that is ever loaded. Get a dummy gun that's specifically designed for this sort of training and cannot fire a real round.
What your instructor is doing is how people end up dead.

 

[Runs With Fire]

This is an idiotic thing to do with any gun that is ever loaded. Get a dummy gun that's specifically designed for this sort of training and cannot fire a real round.
What your instructor is doing is how people end up dead.

I could see that.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Agreed that there are simulation firearms like the SIRT that are designed for this. Stay away from a real firearm. My other question was were you completing the disarm or just trying to grab the gun. Because if you were trying to disarm I would think the attacker at some point would have a broken finger. All our firearm disarms involve the attacker getting a broken finger on the disarm.

 

[Runs With Fire]

Agreed that there are simulation firearms like the SIRT that are designed for this. Stay away from a real firearm. My other question was were you completing the disarm or just trying to grab the gun. Because if you were trying to disarm I would think the attacker at some point would have a broken finger. All our firearm disarms involve the attacker getting a broken finger on the disarm.

Yeah, never speciified that. Move out of line of fire and controll the weapon, slowly disarm so we retain ten fingers. The rubber pistols we usualy use have trigger guards removed.

 

[Runs With Fire]

I'd love to have a few non firing trainers with a built in laser. I've seen them, just can't buy anything fun for a while.

 

[CB Jones]

I've often thought about the value - and pain - of using simunitions. In the end, I mostly wuss out.

We do close Quarter Gunfighting Training with Glock 9 mm Simunition guns....a lot of fun.

Simunitions training with AR-15 Simunition gun.....not so much.....still have scar on left bicep from last year.

 

[Runs With Fire]

Checking prices; I might be able to swing a cheap laserlyte. I wonder how well they hold up to being manhandled.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

The SIRT trainers are built to last. High quality but expensive. I have five that I use for firearms training.

 

[Brian King]

Gas operated Airsoft for testing and blue guns or broken or marked 'live' for training. The ammo is inexpensive and training gear is also inexpensive...goggles for everyone in the room. Do not pad up, t-shirts, pants, and goggles. Pain is an extremely honest training partner.
Regards
Brian King

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We do close Quarter Gunfighting Training with Glock 9 mm Simunition guns....a lot of fun.

Simunitions training with AR-15 Simunition gun.....not so much.....still have scar on left bicep from last year.

Ow.

Is simunitions even available to civilians?

 

[CB Jones]

Ow.

Is simunitions even available to civilians?

I would think so

 

[Dirty Dog]

Ow.

Is simunitions even available to civilians?

Of course. Why wouldn't they be?
Without access to training tools, stupid people would be using real guns!

 

[Oni_Kadaki]

My karate sensei once had me unload my concealed carry and use it for gun disarm practice. While I would never endorse doing such a thing under normal circumstances, my sensei was retired law enforcement and SWAT, and several of us in the class were law enforcement and military. As a precaution, after myself and an off-duty LEO both unloaded our weapons, we passed our weapons around, slides locked back and magazine wells empty, and every student personally inspected them to ensure they were unloaded. I will say that while I probably will never train that way again, I did learn a bit from training with my own weapon. For example, the probability of my opponent getting a chance to disarm me was much higher when my weapon was decocked vs.when it was cocked.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Of course. Why wouldn't they be?
Without access to training tools, stupid people would be using real guns!

Many less-lethal rounds are not available to civilians, which drives me nuts. I can buy 12ga. slugs, but not baton rounds.

 

[Dirty Dog]

My karate sensei once had me unload my concealed carry and use it for gun disarm practice. While I would never endorse doing such a thing under normal circumstances, my sensei was retired law enforcement and SWAT, and several of us in the class were law enforcement and military. As a precaution, after myself and an off-duty LEO both unloaded our weapons, we passed our weapons around, slides locked back and magazine wells empty, and every student personally inspected them to ensure they were unloaded. I will say that while I probably will never train that way again, I did learn a bit from training with my own weapon. For example, the probability of my opponent getting a chance to disarm me was much higher when my weapon was decocked vs.when it was cocked.

So not one, not two, but a whole bunch of people who should have known better. #facepalm

Many less-lethal rounds are not available to civilians, which drives me nuts. I can buy 12ga. slugs, but not baton rounds.

True enough. There are lots of things that are illegal (automatic knives in many states, for example) for which there is no rational reason for the prohibition.

In any case, wax bullets are not illegal. You can buy them.