Traditional vs MMA

Rook

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Shrewsbury said:
the thing is there is no way to determine what is better, for each persons veiw on what is better differs.

any way of training can be scrutinized and weaknesses pointed out. many seem to think that real training means some one is trying to hit you, sure it's better than if they punch to the side or pull there blows short, but still we can scrutinize this way of training by saying, who is throwing the strikes? how are they being thrown? most street thugs do not train and strike in some strange manners. also what about the intent, you partner does not wish to hurt you, no matter how hard he throws the punch, his intention is to be your partner, not to rob, rape, or kill you. again factor in mental illness, drugs, and adreniline and we have another mess on our hands.

I know people were upset when I reffered to this as the "my dad is bigger than your dad syndrome", but it truly is, well atleast most often. the only thing I care about in "your" training is what you can offer me, whether your style is better or you can beat me up is irrelevent, but what might i learn from you is important.

this is just the net and i will never get to see most of you or what you do, but by your words i can still learn more about myself, why i do what i do, and perhaps a little about you.

I guess, even though I don't compete, that I will lay out the case for competitive fighting as a part of training.

The thing that I see most when I see the net-videos of people talking about street attacks and their defenses is that the attackers ussually fire off only one strike, that that strike is either a wild haymaker or a strike from the martial art in question, and that the attacker ussually has some weird expression. A streetfighter, like a trained fighter opposing you in a cage or a ring, is honestly trying to hurt you as much as possible. The attack is continous, the strikes come in combonations, chained sets, or just a wild sucession - the attacker may clinch, try to push or pull you over or tackle you - not uncommon at all. The attacker will reset when he has a chance - he won't passively go down.

The problem with the self-defense drills I see so often on the net or described in martial arts texts is that they are predicated on the assumption of dealing with one attack or a prearranged series of attacks and then countering. When faced with freeform, these ideas translate to some extent, but not as well.

There is alot more to intent than throwing wild haymakers with fake angry look on your face and then standing there while your partener counters. There is more to self defense fighting than this.
 

Brother John

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Rook said:
I guess, even though I don't compete, that I will lay out the case for competitive fighting as a part of training.
.

I don't think that's the main issue at stake here:
It's not "Should competitive fighting be a part of ones training"
But IS MMA better or worse than TMA...and why.

It's not about competitive fighting being a 'part' of ones training...because that can encompas either side of the argument.
....it's "IS competitive fighting THE way of training"
.not just a part.

Your Bro
John
 

Floating Egg

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I should probably note that when I referred to my desire for a non-competitive environment, I meant an environment where students aren't pressured to take part in tournaments. I'm all for randori.
 

Kensai

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Floating Egg said:
1. Non-competitive environment that addresses contemporary self-defense issues.
2. Pressure testing.
3. Pre-fight and post-assault management.
4. Scenario based adrenal stress training against armed and unarmed attackers.
5. Pre-emptive strikes.
6. The psychological and behavioral characteristics that make up a confrontation, including, but not limited to posturing and verbal dissuasion.
7. Absence of woo-woo.

To answer your second question, no I'm not tired of taijutsu.

Cool. I was a little confused by point no 7 though. What is "woo-woo"? Whatever it is, I like the sound of it. :boing2:
 

Rook

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Floating Egg said:
I should probably note that when I referred to my desire for a non-competitive environment, I meant an environment where students aren't pressured to take part in tournaments. I'm all for randori.

Thats what I figured.

Say, have you considered SAMBO? They tend to spend alot of time on mass attacks and modern weapon defenses, they do alot of fully resistant work with both striking and grappling (though probably more of the latter), and the training, from the people I have talked to, seems to lack the one-ups-manship edge of BJJ and the like. There won't be the same sort of kow-towing as is seen in alot of traditionals arts, but you'll still get a bit of cultural stuff about Russia.
 

Floating Egg

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Kensai said:
Cool. I was a little confused by point no 7 though. What is "woo-woo"? Whatever it is, I like the sound of it.

woo-woo adj. concerned with emotions, mysticism, or spiritualism; other than rational or scientific; mysterious; new agey. Also n., a person who has mystical or new age beliefs.

Rook said:
Thats what I figured.

Say, have you considered SAMBO? They tend to spend alot of time on mass attacks and modern weapon defenses, they do alot of fully resistant work with both striking and grappling (though probably more of the latter), and the training, from the people I have talked to, seems to lack the one-ups-manship edge of BJJ and the like. There won't be the same sort of kow-towing as is seen in alot of traditionals arts, but you'll still get a bit of cultural stuff about Russia.

The only familiarity I have with Sambo is Andrei Arlovski, but from what I've been able to find on Wikipedia it looks interesting. It's unfortunate that I don't have many options where I'm currently located.
 

Cryozombie

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Andrew Green said:
Of course proving the % statistics one way or another is impossible, so lets' argue about something else :)

You're right... shouldnt state unprovable opinion... OOPs... why'd this thread start then?

:rolleyes:
 

Xue Sheng

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Technopunk said:
You're right... shouldnt state unprovable opinion... OOPs... why'd this thread start then?

:rolleyes:

I am truly sorry and I honestly mean no disrespect to MMA or TMA but the above quote deserves the following.

:lfao:
 

Andrew Green

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Technopunk said:
You're right... shouldnt state unprovable opinion... OOPs... why'd this thread start then?

:rolleyes:

Well, once arbitrary statistics (90% / 75%) etc start getting introduced, whatever discussion could be happening gets lost in arguing over the statistics. Which everyone is bound to disagree on and have absolutely no basis. You claim more people are into MMA because of TV then traditional arts, I think that is nonsense. Seems we are stuck there...

But, the pros and cons of each can be discussed quite reasonably, without the injection of completely arbitrary numbers to back a point.
 

Cryozombie

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Andrew Green said:
You claim more people are into MMA because of TV then traditional arts

No I don't.

I said I think percentagewise More people were introduced to MMA by UFC bradcasts than TMA people were introduced to their arts by Movies. I admitted that based on sheer numbers, its probably the other way around.

So tell me... If most MMA fighters didnt learn about MMA from Televised events, where did they? Oh, yeah accidentally stumbling into those mma schools that are prevalant in every stripmall...

Yeah... you gettin my point?
 

Cryozombie

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Technopunk said:
.

So tell me... If most MMA fighters didnt learn about MMA from Televised events, where did they? Oh, yeah accidentally stumbling into those mma schools that are prevalant in every stripmall...

Yeah... you gettin my point?

In fact, can you explain the history and evolution of MMA out of the arts it evolved from, if it wasn't a result of the desire to win those aforementioned Events? Its my understanding that particular "art" developed as a DRIECT RESULT of UFC type fights... if so, Id be so bold as to say 100% of the people who study MMA do it because of the UFCesuqe broadcasts.
 

Cryozombie

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Andrew Green said:
People where fighting this way before the UFC even got started.

Uh... ok? So MMA as an art existed before UFC? I don't mean like BJJ, or Muai Thai, or a Muai Thai guy who did a little BJJ... Im talking MMA.

Can you enlighten me to the history?
 

SFC JeffJ

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I guess an argument could be made that JKD was an MMA.
 

Xue Sheng

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Technopunk said:
Right with a Blend of BJJ, MT, etc...

None of those by themselves were "MMA"

True, so far it appears Shootfighting first combines with BJJ, but I am not yet certain of this. I am researching it however and will post more later.
 

Odin

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Technopunk said:
Uh... ok? So MMA as an art existed before UFC? I don't mean like BJJ, or Muai Thai, or a Muai Thai guy who did a little BJJ... Im talking MMA.

Can you enlighten me to the history?

OKay......from wikipedia ( incase you didnt beleive me)

History of MMA

One of the earliest forms of widespread unarmed combat sports with minimal rules was Greek pankration, which was introduced into the Olympic games in 648 B.C.[1] Some no-holds-barred events reportedly took place in the late 1800s when wrestlers representing a huge range of fighting styles including various catch wrestling styles, Greco-Roman wrestling and many others met in tournaments and music-hall challenge matches throughout Europe[citation needed]. The first major encounter between a boxer and a wrestler in modern times took place in 1887 when John L. Sullivan, then heavyweight boxing champion of the world, entered the ring with his trainer, the Greco-Roman wrestling champion, William Muldoon and was slammed to the mat in two minutes. The next publicized encounter occurred in the late 1890s when future heavyweight boxing champion, Bob Fitzsimmons took on European Greco-Roman wrestling champion, Ernest Roeber. Reportedly, Roeber suffered a fractured cheekbone in this bout, but was able to get Fitzsimmons down on the mat, where he applied an arm lock and made the boxer submit. In 1936, heavyweight boxing contender, Kingfish Levinsky and the veteran professional wrestler, Ray Steele competed in a mixed match; which Steele won in 35 seconds. In all three of these 'mixed-matches', the wrestler won.[2]

Pankration was an ancient form of unarmed hand to hand combat resembling the mixed martial arts of today.


The vogue for professional wrestling died out after the First World War, only to be reborn in two major streams: "shoot", in which the fighters actually competed, and "show" which became increasingly dependent on staged combat and evolved into modern professional wrestling. Some authorities credit an ex-football player turned wrestler, Gus Sonnenberg, by using flying tackles and billy-goat butting, with ushering in the new style of sports entertainment wrestling.[3]
Modern mixed martial arts are rooted in two interconnected movements. First were the vale tudo events in Brazil, followed by the Japanese shoot wrestling shows. Vale tudo (meaning 'anything goes') began in the 1920s with the famous "Gracie challenge" issued by Carlos Gracie and Hélio Gracie and upheld later on by descendents of the gracie family.[1] In Japan in the 1970s, a series of mixed martial arts matches were hosted by Antonio Inoki, inspiring the shoot-style movement in Japanese professional wrestling, which eventually led to the formation of the first mixed martial arts organizations such as Shooto, formed in 1985.[4]
Moreover, the emergence of Bruce Lee in the late 1960's and early 1970's paved the way for further studies of hybrid fighting through his theories on Jeet Kune Do. Lee believed that traditional martial arts were limited to fixed positions from which to strike; a "fancy mess" that strongly inhibited many fighters/practitioners. Lee borrowed facets of wing chun, western boxing, fencing, muay thai, Filipino Martial Arts, and even wrestling in order to come up with a fighting style that allowed relaxed movement and effective blows.
Mixed martial arts gained real international exposure and widespread publicity in the U.S in 1993, when Royce Gracie won the first Ultimate Fighting Championship, sparking a revolution in the martial arts.[5] In 1994, Frederico Lapenda became the first non-Japanese to promote a mixed martial arts event in Japan, the Vale Tudo Championship.[1] In Japan in 1997, the continued interest in the sport eventually resulted in the creation of the PRIDE Fighting Championships.[6]
 

zDom

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JeffJ said:
I guess an argument could be made that JKD was an MMA.

The same argument could be made for Hapkido :)
 

Xue Sheng

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Odin said:
OKay......from wikipedia ( incase you didnt beleive me)
History of MMA

What he said and what I have found so far

A quick and rough outline of the History of MMA, so far

- Starts with the Greeks in 648 BC as pankration

- Declines with the decline of the Greek empire and the rise of the Roman Empire

- Mixed fighting matches appear between Greco-Roman Wrestlers and Boxers in the 1800s and early 1930s, the wrestlers win every time

- Brazil 1920s Gastao Gracie becomes friends with Mitsuyo Maeda who is a Judo Champion from Japan

- Mitsuyo Maeda trains Gastao Gracie's Son George for 6 years

- George trains his brothers Helio ,Jorge, Osvaldo, and Gastao Jr.

- Carlos and Heloi opened a Jujitsu academy in Rio de Janeiro

- The “Gracie Challenge’ Began and a revival of Mixed Martial Arts. Called valo-tudo (anything goes) fighting. This was basically Gracie Style Jujitsu taking on all comes from any Martial Art. They did successfully defeat all comers.

- Second the was a series of mixed martial arts matches in Japan hosted by Antonio Inoki which brought about a shoot-style movement in Japanese professional wrestling

- In the early 1990s Wrestlers, BJJ and Shoot wrestling practitioners were effective on MMA

- Later Rorion Gracie, Art Davies and Bob Meyrowitz established the “Ultimate fighting Championship”

Also I found 2 things, so far, that surprised me

1) There are also 2 versions of MMA Sport and Street, many of the Street practitioners come from JKD. Street tends to train more for weapons awareness than does sport but they are both similar the only real difference appears to be the strategy.

2) The Gracie family comes from Scotland – George Gracie emigrated from Scotland and is the Grandfather of Gastao
 
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