wiz cool c
Orange Belt
I am an ex Bujinkan member, over a decade ago, still train but primarily in the Chinese arts. Just curious how do Toshindo members train against the treat of going up against a modern sport style grappler
Toshindo vs the grappler
- Thread starter wiz cool c
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wiz cool c
Orange Belt
yeah i got a black belt in Bujinkan but been out of it for a least a decade. i thought maybe would have more detail on the toshindo training methods for dealing with a modern style grappler, that was a pretty generic answer you gave there. is it the standard half speed defense against a choreographed technique stuff?
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Why would you like to know?
Most likely, the only way to be able to reliably be able to deal with s grappler is to go train grappling. Grapplers train against skilled players regularly and when training with resistance they know the best way to avoid being taken down by a skilled grappler. Any non grappling focused system teaching grapplibg defense is only dealing in speculation.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Yes. Good question. The answer to your question will really depend on your answer to drop bears question.
I assume it should contain both stand up grappling and ground grappling.
In stand up grappling, unless you can knock your opponent down before your opponent can get a clinch on you, you have to know how to deal with clinch.
So what kind of clinch knowledge and clinch training does the Bujinkan system have?
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This. I've done stand up styles in the past. Whatever I might have thought, I really had no idea how to deal with a grappler. Hell, I'd say even after 2 1/2 years of BJJ I still don't...
As an aside, and I'm sure I'm not the only one, but every time I see toshindo I think of the old PS game Battle Arena Toshindo.
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wiz cool c
Orange Belt
O come on that is a bujinkan type of answer. Cause it is an interesting topic and this is a martial art message board designed for talking about martial arts.im not planning on challenging anyone don’t worry I live in china and do kung fu now.
Are there any toshindo members here? Since no one can give me a clear answer I think it is safe to assume, same as bujinkan ,half speed defense against choreographed techniques
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
OK this was one of my old wrestling coaches for a bit before he moved to top team puket.
I have no idea how to stop him taking me down short of using a baseball bat.
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wiz cool c
Orange Belt
yeah i know what you mean man, one of my coaches is a pro fighter named yaohangong, if i ever had to face him in a real fight i would have to go for his eyes with a weaopn. it is like he is not human
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Frankly, the only system that I've seen that's effective against grappling is various MMA systems, and they're effective because they actually have grapplers in their schools teaching them how to grapple. Unfortunately, what I've seen out of Toshindo hasn't been very convincing. As Mephisto said, it deals with a lot of speculation, and what's worse their counters are based on some pretty outdated grappling concepts. Modern grappling is evolving at a pretty rapid pace, with Bjj, Wrestling, Judo, Sambo, Shao Jaio, and MMA all merging at various levels. If you head into a Judo school nowadays, they're probably going to be teaching you Bjj, wrestling, or Sambo alongside your standard Judo practice, and vice versa.
In short, if your goal is to learn how to counter grappling, go to the source. I'm pretty sure Toshindo instructors themselves have said that their grappling/anti-grappling system isn't designed to fight against a skilled grappler.
In short, if your goal is to learn how to counter grappling, go to the source. I'm pretty sure Toshindo instructors themselves have said that their grappling/anti-grappling system isn't designed to fight against a skilled grappler.
There is a such thing called "mat time". How much time that you have invested on the mat is something that you cannot fake it.
I don't know if we have any currently active members practicing Toshindo, although I think we may have in the past.
I have seen Steve Hayes teach a couple of techniques from the guard (top and bottom) and I wasn't very impressed. That's been a while, so hopefully he's figured it out better since then.
Theoretically, Toshindo shouldn't need much in the way of technique for dealing with modern sport style grapplers, because it's supposed to be focused on self-defense. You're not likely to be attacked in a dark alley by a jiu-jiteiro pulling guard on you. It makes me suspect that Steve come up with the stuff he was showing as a selling point to convince his students they could take on a MMA fighter rather than in order to address a real self-defense need.
I have seen Steve Hayes teach a couple of techniques from the guard (top and bottom) and I wasn't very impressed. That's been a while, so hopefully he's figured it out better since then.
Theoretically, Toshindo shouldn't need much in the way of technique for dealing with modern sport style grapplers, because it's supposed to be focused on self-defense. You're not likely to be attacked in a dark alley by a jiu-jiteiro pulling guard on you. It makes me suspect that Steve come up with the stuff he was showing as a selling point to convince his students they could take on a MMA fighter rather than in order to address a real self-defense need.
Spent a week with him a long time ago, too. I wasn't impressed with anything having to do with grappling, or how to deal with grappling, but I really liked him and enjoyed so much of what he had to say about other things in Martial Arts. He was a lot of fun to be around and exchange ideas with.
Good times.
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wiz cool c
Orange Belt
Hanzou I agree and disagree with what you are saying. Yes inorder to have a realistic idea of the skills of a grappler you should experience it first hand. On the other hand these guys are not training to compete in grappling competitions, but for self defense where they can use the techniques that they tain in and are all banned from competition.
I have done sombo, bjj judo, and have competed in two grappling comps so have some experience in sport grappling. I also have a bb in bujinkan but have done it in about ten years. In my current training which is based in the Chinese systems, I like to train with my coach and friend pro fighter Yao Honggang when I can. I like to work mostly on escapes and incorporate them into my kung fu training, this way if my stand up fails and I do end up on the ground I got a better chance of escaping and getting back to my feet and utilize the kung fu skill that I practice daily.
I have done sombo, bjj judo, and have competed in two grappling comps so have some experience in sport grappling. I also have a bb in bujinkan but have done it in about ten years. In my current training which is based in the Chinese systems, I like to train with my coach and friend pro fighter Yao Honggang when I can. I like to work mostly on escapes and incorporate them into my kung fu training, this way if my stand up fails and I do end up on the ground I got a better chance of escaping and getting back to my feet and utilize the kung fu skill that I practice daily.
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wiz cool c
Orange Belt
I don’t know it is pretty common these days, like saying a bad guy might not know anything about boxing.. and even if a bjj trained guy doesn’t try mugging you,there are some wanna be tough guys out there that might possible challenge another style to a fight based on the early gracie examples
Hanzou
Grandmaster
That is a nonsensical approach to the dilemma, and it has been disproven over and over again.
If a grappler gets you with an Osoto Gari and you land on your head, you're either unconscious, or dead. I don't care how many secret or deadly techniques you know. The difference between his Osoto Gari, and your Dim Mak technique is that he's done it over and over again to a wide variety of opponents of various sizes at full resistance. You on the other hand, have never actually done the deadly technique on anyone. Again, you have speculation, he has experience.
Osoto Gari is a "competition technique" that can kill someone depending on the surface it's perform it on. It's also one of the most basic techniques in Judo and Bjj.
Then why are you worried about grappling in Toshindo?
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wiz cool c
Orange Belt
I am just trying to start an interesting topic here. And it has been proven again and again ? show me some videos of toshindo or ninjutsu guys in real street fights losing against grapplers. If there aren’t any it hasn’t been proven again and again, why? Cause these guys aren’t doing what they do for trophies. Self defense is totally different from competition. One time I defended myself against three bigger guys on a Manhattan corner late at night outside a bar by using a broken bottle and evasive footwork. I don’t know of any sport grappling technique that would have worked under those conditions. And I learned that strategy from my old bujinkan days.
there are so many situation where you don’t want to grapple on the ground with a guy. How about you are at a bar or night club where people usually have friends with them. Or on a subway platform. realistically every martial artist with self defense as their goal should learn some ground fighting. I would estimate about 6 to 8 months worth is sufficient. After all how many different guard passes do you need to know for a self defense situation/street fight.
there are so many situation where you don’t want to grapple on the ground with a guy. How about you are at a bar or night club where people usually have friends with them. Or on a subway platform. realistically every martial artist with self defense as their goal should learn some ground fighting. I would estimate about 6 to 8 months worth is sufficient. After all how many different guard passes do you need to know for a self defense situation/street fight.
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Steve
Mostly Harmless
I grapple on the ground, cause I'm always the one with friends. I pull guard so my friends can kick the guy on top.
