TKD is Weak on the street as a self defense?

[Steve]

I haven't seen a lot of evidence to support this, except where the other person was presenting an aggressive air.

It happened to Jean Claude Van Damme in kickboxer.

 

[DaveB]

So then that argument means you can train two styles at once because the core skills are similar? Or you can't train two styles because the styles produce different results.

I mean it is not really proving anything more than showing that you are not making much sense here.

You took half of an argument from an entirely different discussion and without any context tried to jam it into the middle of this discussion. Of course it doesn't make sense.

You haven't even understood the difference between specific advice on training for effective ability (the non style specific guidance on how to own his training aka the thing I asked if you disagree with) and general advice on training (ie the comment about training one style to begin with, aka the thing you insist on talking about).

There is not one thing that you have raised that you actually seem to have followed, so how could any of it make sense to you?

So then that argument means you can train two styles at once because the core skills are similar? Or you can't train two styles because the styles produce different results.

Niether: My suggestion was that the process of learning two distinct skill sets might confuse him in the early stages of training because the basic movements and ideas are different and unlike learning both skills in the one class, two distinct classes will push more information with no details on bridging the two sets of concepts.

So you are confusing a comment about the beginnings of learning something, with an argument about the end ability to use that thing.

And while I stand by my advice I accept that it is not true for everyone. Also I agreed with you that overcoming said learning difficulties and blending different skill sets will make you a better martial artist.

In other words this issue is not one I'm so wedded to that I care to argue over it.

And while I'm happy to argue about the irrelevance of fighting style, I do need you to at least have a worthwhile point and not simply rely on this perpetual state of confusion brought on by your inability to retain context.

 

[TrueJim]

XMA is not a martial art, no matter what they call it. I've seen modern dance routines that do what we call martial arts moves. I've seen XMA. Same thing.

Playing devil's advocate...

The word "martial" means "pertaining to war" -- so technically no art is truly a martial art unless it's training you specifically for military combat. But of course, that definition is narrower than common usage.

Over time, the phrase "martial art" has expanded: nowadays many people use the phrase in its "pop culture" sense, to mean any art that "trains you in how to fight."

But even that expanded definition leaves out a lot of things that most would certainly consider to be martial arts! Is practicing with a 3-section staff or sai really training you for a fight, seriously? How about archery or fencing...are those things training you for self-defense? How about training that focuses on just WT-style sparring, or how about tai chi practiced just for fitness -- are those activities training you to fight?

Personally, I like this definition: a martial art is an art whose historical roots derive from military combat. Personally, I think this is the only definition that makes sense. Any other definition excludes things that most people would clearly consider to be a martial art.

Under that definition, XMA is a martial at.

 

[speedking668]

I think I'm going to stick with TKD and around 6 months in to it start learning judo or JJ. I'd imagine by that time I would have most of the basics covered and can then add in throws, takedowns etc

 

[JR 137]

XMA is not a martial art, no matter what they call it. I've seen modern dance routines that do what we call martial arts moves. I've seen XMA. Same thing.

What does the “MA” stand for in XMA?



Yeah... I know.

 

[Balrog]

Playing devil's advocate...

The word "martial" means "pertaining to war" -- so technically no art is truly a martial art unless it's training you specifically for military combat. But of course, that definition is narrower than common usage.

Over time, the phrase "martial art" has expanded: nowadays many people use the phrase in its "pop culture" sense, to mean any art that "trains you in how to fight."

But even that expanded definition leaves out a lot of things that most would certainly consider to be martial arts! Is practicing with a 3-section staff or sai really training you for a fight, seriously? How about archery or fencing...are those things training you for self-defense? How about training that focuses on just WT-style sparring, or how about tai chi practiced just for fitness -- are those activities training you to fight?

Personally, I like this definition: a martial art is an art whose historical roots derive from military combat. Personally, I think this is the only definition that makes sense. Any other definition excludes things that most people would clearly consider to be a martial art.

Under that definition, XMA is a martial at.

Under no definition possible is XMA a martial art. To me, if one trains in a martial art, one should be able to defend oneself in a physical encounter. Someone who does XMA would get a mudhole stomped in their butt. It's a dance routine. Movie-fu is another term I've heard used for it, and not in a complimentary way.

 

[Balrog]

What does the “MA” stand for in XMA?



Yeah... I know.

My ***. Well, it might as well.
Abe Lincoln's philosophy applies here:
How many legs does a dog have if you call his tail a leg? Four. Saying that a tail is a leg doesn't make it a leg.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Personally, I like this definition: a martial art is an art whose historical roots derive from military combat.

I'll just add "...or self-defense." Only because there are styles (I think Western boxing is one) that don't have distinct roots in military combat, but were developed around personal defense.

 

[TrueJim]

Under no definition possible is XMA a martial art.

Well clearly this cannot be true, since I just provided a definition in which XMA is included!

It would be more accurate to say: under no definition that you like does XMA qualify.

To me, if one trains in a martial art, one should be able to defend oneself in a physical encounter.

There are two things wrong with this definition: it excludes some things that are martial arts, and it includes some things that are not.

1. Simply going to the gym on a regular basis improves anybody's chances of being able to defend themselves. But we don't call "going to the gym" a martial art.

2. Lots of martial arts don't improve a person's ability to defend themselves. Archery is a good example.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Under no definition possible is XMA a martial art. To me, if one trains in a martial art, one should be able to defend oneself in a physical encounter. Someone who does XMA would get a mudhole stomped in their butt. It's a dance routine. Movie-fu is another term I've heard used for it, and not in a complimentary way.

They'd get stomped if they attempted to use their tricking, but they are certainly getting more fit and agile. So they are almost certainly better able to defend than they were before training XMA, and probably no less so than someone who trains only and specifically for light-touch point sparring.

 

[TrueJim]

How many legs does a dog have if you call his tail a leg? Four. Saying that a tail is a leg doesn't make it a leg.

Or as they say in the AI world...

"A cat is an animal with four legs."

"Then what do you call a three-legged cat?"

 

[TrueJim]

They'd get stomped if they attempted to use their tricking, but they are certainly getting more fit and agile. So they are almost certainly better able to defend than they were before training XMA, and probably no less so than someone who trains only and specifically for light-touch point sparring.

My experience in actual self-defense situations is anecdotal, but in my experience being physically fit is arguably more important even than technique. And even more important than physical fitness is just state-of-mind: thinking clearly and making good, quick decisions.

We have a 6th dan who tells the story of the only time he ever had to use his "taekwondo" -- a guy with a knife grabbed a lady's purse on the street and started to flee. The 6th dan was wearing a backpack, so he turned his back to the assailant (using the backpack as a shield from the knife) and simply stuck his foot out to trip the purse-snatcher. The purse-snatcher fell, and then the 6th dan sat on him while holding his arm in a lock until the police arrived. The 6th dan jokes about spending decades practicing all kinds of kicks and strikes, but at the end of the day the only technique he's ever "used" is just tripping a guy.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My experience in actual self-defense situations is anecdotal, but in my experience being physically fit is arguably more important even than technique. And even more important than physical fitness is just state-of-mind: thinking clearly and making good, quick decisions.

We have a 6th dan who tells the story of the only time he ever had to use his "taekwondo" -- a guy with a knife grabbed a lady's purse on the street and started to flee. The 6th dan was wearing a backpack, so he turned his back to the assailant (using the backpack as a shield from the knife) and simply stuck his foot out to trip the purse-snatcher. The purse-snatcher fell, and then the 6th dan sat on him while holding his arm in a lock until the police arrived. The 6th dan jokes about spending decades practicing all kinds of kicks and strikes, but at the end of the day the only technique he's ever "used" is just tripping a guy.

Here's my take on this sort of thing: sparring and partner work improves our ability to do this sort of thing (decisions about how to protect, where to place body, how to intercept his leg, etc.), even though it's not techniques we actually practiced. It's using principles, rather than techniques - and that's the highest level of application, IMO.

 

[Steve]

Under no definition possible is XMA a martial art. To me, if one trains in a martial art, one should be able to defend oneself in a physical encounter. Someone who does XMA would get a mudhole stomped in their butt. It's a dance routine. Movie-fu is another term I've heard used for it, and not in a complimentary way.

Is tai chi a martial art? What about Kyudo? Your definition of "martial art" isn't as widely accepted as you seem to believe.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I posted something about this recently. "Martial art" is a vague term. Most of us agree on the core of it - there are things we'll all agree are obviously martial arts. But we all have our own boundaries drawn around the term, and most of us will have differences with each other. I think if we're honest about it, we can all admit that there are things we aren't even sure whether they meet our own definition or not; I've never heard a definition that didn't leave room for nuanced interpretation.

 

[Steve]

I posted something about this recently. "Martial art" is a vague term. Most of us agree on the core of it - there are things we'll all agree are obviously martial arts. But we all have our own boundaries drawn around the term, and most of us will have differences with each other. I think if we're honest about it, we can all admit that there are things we aren't even sure whether they meet our own definition or not; I've never heard a definition that didn't leave room for nuanced interpretation.

I have a generous and broad definition of the term. Probably more than most.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hey @Steve , when the hell did we start agreeing on stuff?

That's boring.

SELF DEFENSE!!

 

[drop bear]

I'll just add "...or self-defense." Only because there are styles (I think Western boxing is one) that don't have distinct roots in military combat, but were developed around personal defense.

Seal team 6 uses boxing coaches.

Who Teaches SEAL Team 6 How to Fight? | TIME.com

Boxing used in world war 1.

 

[drop bear]

Under no definition possible is XMA a martial art. To me, if one trains in a martial art, one should be able to defend oneself in a physical encounter. Someone who does XMA would get a mudhole stomped in their butt. It's a dance routine. Movie-fu is another term I've heard used for it, and not in a complimentary way.

Everybody's someone elses ninja.

You say XMA. I say Krav Maga.

 

[Paul_D]

We have a 6th dan who tells the story of the only time he ever had to use his "taekwondo" -- a guy with a knife grabbed a lady's purse on the street and started to flee. The 6th dan was wearing a backpack, so he turned his back to the assailant (using the backpack as a shield from the knife) and simply stuck his foot out to trip the purse-snatcher. The purse-snatcher fell, and then the 6th dan sat on him while holding his arm in a lock until the police arrived. The 6th dan jokes about spending decades practicing all kinds of kicks and strikes, but at the end of the day the only technique he's ever "used" is just tripping a guy.

Unless there is a piece of information that I am missing, I don't see why he "had" to use his TKD. He chose to help help the lady yes, but he didn't need to or have to.

Putting yourself in a situation where you could potentially be stabbed for the sake of a strangers handbag (the contents of which could presumably be easily replaced?)
just sounds fool hardy at best and downright stupid at worst. I'm not potentially dying for the contents of my own bag, let alone someone else's.