TKD Bash

[Kirk]

Originally posted by warder
Im just glad this guy wrote in because this is the longest ive seen most of you guyse without bashing TKD.

I don't want to bash your art guy. I HONESTLY and TRULY would
like to discuss this in a rational manner that at least I can learn
from. If I say something that seems insulting or harsh, I
apologize up front, this is NOT my intention. Now I'm new to
any M.A. to speak of, so let me tell you what negative stuff I've
read/heard/discussed about TKD, and you can address them.
I would love to hear your replies and not so that I can bash
you, or your style in anway. I ask that those posting in this
thread to do the same. Here we go:

1) TKD is an art fascinated with lots of high kicks, and very
little punching.

2) TKD would not be very effective if used in a street fight.

3) High kicks have little application. They throw the kicker
seriously off balance, and leave the groin exposed for
too long. They also are easily telegraphed from because
of such a long travel distance, and contain little power.

4) The term Mc Dojo came to be because of an extremely
large number of TKD dojos popping up making promises
of earning a black belt in short order ... shorter than
any other art. In addition, to required elements for
earning a b.b. in TKD are limited to forms and breaking.
No actual self defense techniques are required knowledge
for earning a belt rank.

5) TKD does not teach fatal strikes.

6) Sparring under specific sparring rules in now way prepares
you for real world fighting, yet TKD students are told it does.

7) Your comments on the following URL? :
http://www.glondon.com/tkdfeedback.html

I know it's not complimentary, but these are things discussed
when most talk bad about TKD. It is NOT my intention to
insult you. Let's discuss!

 

[warder]

Im not offended at all. Dont worry. TKD is a competitive sport, thet does emphasize high kicks. That is only if your in a competition. I use to feel, like most that it wasnt a real martial art. Ive trained in many styles for around 10 years, and have seen what else is out there. I can only speak from my experience. I think it is a valid style of martial arts. My school, wich might be different from most TKD schools, seperates the competition training from the self defense training. Im not gonna defend TKD so much as I am the school where i study, and the istructors i have. the kicks you do durring competitive sparring should be in no way used in a fight. Im no stranger to bar room brawls im sad to say. your always right that punches arnt really used in competition, but that doesnt mean we dont learn them.
its hard to sit and say why i believe tkd is a true art. the problem, people see only competitive tkd. that in know way reflects my training at all. most of the train i do is similiar to a boxers. we work on alot of combination strikes. and alot of self defense manuvers, including take downs, and yes, lethal techniques. Probably no where as much as kenpo teaches, but im not lacking in it any less. I have competed, and it is not easy, and despite it being mainly kicks, it can be pretty brutal. my competive sparring has taught me timing, how to read opponents better, and also it helps with stamina. Were taught not to use high kicks for self defense, we are taught other tools to use. But this is my school. If someone only knows competition style tkd, your right, they would be eaten alive in a street fight. and for there being alot of TKD schools around, that doesnt compare to the amount of karate schools in the country. like any other style, if you have a hack instructor, then how much can you actually learn. like i said my school might be different from every other tkd school, but we rely more on practical self defense, and conditioning are fighters than we do on competive sparring. i can honestly say that having earned a black belt in another style, and having trained in a few others, my short time training in tkd has greatly enhanced my ability as a martial artist. youll have to take my word on that. As i have repeatedly stated, i have a great teacher, who is very reputable and very skilled. i dont know what really else to say.
thanks
fred

 

[vincefuess]

I had my beginnings in Chung Do Kwan (TKD by another name)- and I learned alot of good stuff there. I can out-kick many of my Kenpo colleagues, not to mention out-stretch them. Does this apply to actual application? NO. Does it help me? YES. When I first started to train in Kenpo, I could out-kick any of my instructors- so the techniques that involved kicking came easy for me. The balance I had acquired helped me in the maneuvers.

One thing though- after having trained in TKD for so many years, when I started Kenpo I had to change my mindset as applied to conflicts. I was taught in Chung Do Kwan to keep my opponent AWAY from me- that's why we kicked- kicks are more powerful than punches so we kept our opponents in KICKING range- if they got closer than kicking range, we punched or chopped. If they got closer still, we elbowed or knee'd. It was in that order.

When I first started training in Kenpo, Mr. Fowler watched what I was doing, and said to me- "Why leave your opponent out there where he is safe? Get in tight and pull him into your hornet's nest!!!" A light went on in my head that blazes to this day- I am not defending- if this joker wants some of ME, let's drag him in here where he can get it!!!!

It's all between your ears Kirk. Where are YOU when it hits the fan?

 

[fist of fury]

In our area it seems most of the TKD schools are competition schools. If kirk gets too offensive for you let me kniw I can always smack him around for you.

 

[warder]

the one thing that i do believe tkd lacks, is ground fighting skills. i was taught how to get my opponent down, but never put into a scenario where someone got me down. So now im taking BJJ to compliment my tkd training. it picks up where tkd left off.

 

[vincefuess]

Kirk and I have been yackin for awhile on this here internet thang, and he seems like a pretty righteous dude even if he is new to Kenpo!

The comment I made was not intended as a dig- rather a guide- as in "what mindset are you entering a conflict with"?

If someone jumps on your butt, why be the defender? They came into YOUR house, be the OFFENDER! So what if they threw the first punch- it was nothing more than an invitation to get THEIR *** kicked.

 

[deadhand31]

I'm a TKD student!! grr!!!

Well, looking objectively at what you said, alot of what IS true. However, I'm glad to be in my school. The styles you guys are speaking of are chung do kwon, and quite possibly moo duk kwon. I learn Ji Do Kwon. Over 85% of the Olympic champions are Ji Do Kwon. Moo Duk Kwon and Chung Do Kwan do emphasize kicks, that is true. But that is the subtle difference between those styles and Ji Do Kwon. In Moo Duk Kwon, the hands are kept closer to the rib cage, not protecting the head too easily. In Ji Do Kwon, the hands are kept close the head, and in a ready stance to throw out punches. The Ji Do Kwon style still tends to emphasize feet, but only at a distance. It's when you get close that you start using your fists.

My school also teaches to understand the difference between competition and a street fight. In our competitions, high kicks don't score points. It's only kicks to the body, even then we enforce the tremble shock rule. (For those unfamiliar, in order for the point to be counted, the opponent must be moved. real fun when you do a ball roundhouse kick to someone's gut!!!) We're constantly told that in a real life situation, we would react differently than in competition.

Of course high kicks aren't powerful. It's a rule of thumb that gets hammered into our heads that the higher the kick is, the weaker it is, though some cases it's not true. When I was sparring with one of the black belts, he threw an almost vertical side kick. Got me in the chin real bad. All I can say is ow!!! :erg:

As for the lack of ground fighting, that is very true. There isn't any ground fighting in tae kwon do. That's why my school teaches hapkido and hosinsul. Those don't come up in belt testing, they are things that we are taught so we know what to do to submit someone or how to fight if we get knocked down.

Another thing, we learn how to get hit. We use semi-cushioned bags against our bodies when practicing kicks. Didn't help me much tonight though. I was holding TWO bags, and one of the highest ranking black belts did a spin kick straight to my gut. again, ow!! :erg:

Like I've said before, you'll only get out of martial arts what you put into it. If you want to learn it for competition, then you better darn well realize that it won't save you in the streets. If you're in it for self-defense, you better be darn sure of your school. I know I am. I've got one hell of an instructor, and I would be very hard pressed to find another like him.

 

[warder]

i agree completly vinve. To me being the defender is the same as being the victim, and i have no intention in ever being a victim

 

[vincefuess]

I had no intention of putting down Korean arts as a whole- I love Hapkido and hope to train in it some day. Chung Do Kwan was just my introduction, no disrespect intended.

 

[warder]

In are competitions, we use the trembling body shock rule too. We do kick to the head though.

 

[Cthulhu]

I think the effectiveness of TKD depends on when the instructor originally started to train in it, and obviously, the instructor him/herself.

The TKD guy I train with is what I call 'old-school' TKD...from before the WTF. One way to tell if someone started training TKD from 'back in the day' is if they still do the Okinawan forms.

Anyway, he's also had boxing, kickboxing, and karate training, so a bit of each is incorporated into his classes as well. Furthermore, he uses experiences from his time as a bouncer and from other skirmishes to augment his training.

Like all martial arts, the effectiveness really depends on the person doing/teaching the system. With a system that has become so sport-oriented, like TKD, instructors have to be more open-minded and creative to make the system work outside of competition.

Back when I was an immature punk (shutup, you!), I used to TKD-bash, not knowing any better. After growing up (a little), doing some research, and studying with the TKD guy I know, my opinions have changed. TKD as he teaches it is not bad. So don't judge the system, judge the practitioner.

Cthulhu

 

[fist of fury]

Originally posted by vincefuess
Kirk and I have been yackin for awhile on this here internet thang, and he seems like a pretty righteous dude even if he is new to Kenpo!

Oh yeah he is. But since he's a good friend of mine I like to give him a hard time whenever I can.

 

[vincefuess]

Yeah, I gathered as much! Don't let up- I never give my friends a moment of peace. I've even promised a couple of them I will return from the grave to jack with them if I can!!

 

[fist of fury]

Originally posted by vincefuess
Yeah, I gathered as much! Don't let up- I never give my friends a moment of peace. I've even promised a couple of them I will return from the grave to jack with them if I can!!

Hey thats a good idea thanks.

 

[girlychuks]

All I know is, I dare not call it "that p*ssy sport" around my baby brother and sister.. (deadhand31 is my brother, my baby sis just started TKD, and I'm in shaolin kempo)
I do believe it is all in the instructor, and what the art does for you. I've met my sibling's instructor, and I have seen the change that TKD has brought about in them. Believe me, I only see positive changes. Most importantly, it has given them more confidence, and inner strength. Isn't that one of the most important considerations? yet I see that being ignored here.
Regarding "street effectiveness".... my 15 yo baby sister is up against horny rude litle teenage boys...believe me, one good kick, and a kiai, is enough to dissuade most of those little buggers.
And if that doesn't work, her 6'3 200+ big brother, also well versed in TKD, is there to back her up...it's not like they are going to be jumped by a gang of ninjas....

 

[Dronak]

Admittedly, I haven't read the full thread so far. It was just a bit more than I felt like going through at the moment. Also, I have no real experience with TKD, so I'm less informed than others on the subject. I just thought I'd comment that I've also heard about high kicks being ineffective as previously mentioned, because it exposes the groin and possible balance issues. I would imagine that there are ways of compensating for that though. People wouldn't do something that they know has a weakness without having something ready to counter it.

As far as effectiveness in real combat, I couldn't actually say for anything. I have no experience there either. What I will say is that I've heard that when TKD or anything for that matter is taught with primary emphasis on the sport aspect, you can end up learning things that work great in a tournament, but are bad for real combat. Because competitions have rules, you don't worry about the illegal stuff -- you won't do them and your opponent won't do them. This means you may not train in how to perform those types of attacks and/or how to counter them. Fine for competitions, but real comat has no such rules. If you've only trained for sport, you may not know how to handle those competition illegal attacks and that could put you in trouble.

Like I said, my experience is limited. These are just my thoughts based on what I've heard and read. I'm always willing to learn so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong somewhere. I'll probably read this full thread later when I have more time since I've just posted to it.

 

[Rob_Broad]

...it's not like they are going to be jumped by a gang of ninjas.... [/B]

Sssshhhhhhh!!! you might invoke the wrath of Ashida Kim.

 

[fist of fury]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad


Sssshhhhhhh!!! you might invoke the wrath of Ashida Kim.

Yes he has astral spies eveywhere. If you speak his name he sends them to watch you and report back to him everything you say about him. what was that noise ON NO! I........arrrrgh...gurgle...sputter...gasp.............