TKD and real self defense

[goingd]

There are in fact times when kicking high is the actually the better, safer idea. It does not have to be done all the time. When we are defending ourselves our train of thought should never be, "When will I get to throw this high kick?" We should be ready to counter each action of a greater and opposite reaction.

I have a lot of respect for Ed Parker and Bruce Lee, but I disagree with them on a lot of things. Neither one believed in high kicks (though Bruce could sure use them when he wanted to), but both believed in 'finding your own way', and I have a feeling that if they were around, neither one would have keyboard settings for 'enraged' when they happen to disagree another's 'way'.

^~^

 

[Shaderon]

I dont care what elite trained professional fighters can get away with, since no one here is an elite, trained fighter.

How do you know?

One of us could easily be! Please don't make blanket assumptions like that, you could upset someone! You don't have to be famous to be an Elite.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I suppose a lot of it comes down to who you are defending yourself against also (which unfortunately you dont know at the time). Against a trained opponent there is the real possibility of a grab if you go for a head kick and its not super quick and when the time is perfect to do so. Obviously against an untrained opponent that risk diminishes somewhat. I know when we spar aginst much lower belts (where we go very easy) it is surprisingly easy to kick them in the head , they just dont see it coming at all.

Grabbing high kicks is not all that hard and does not require very much training. People do it fairly naturally. If anything the human body grabs more naturally than it strikes.

Also, an assailant who is not formally trained is a very different matter than a low belt in the dojo. Most people in the dojo who are of low rank are regular work-a-day folks who have little fighting instinct. An assailant is intent on hurting you. The low belt is intent on trying to learn the class while not getting hammered by the high belts.

Incidentally, one of the things I see low belts do when they are new to TKD sparring is grab the kicking leg. Not every low belt, but certainly a lot of them.

The last thing about an assailant that you need to concern yourself with is the presence of a weapon, particularly a knife.

Generally, kicks below the waist, hand techniques chest level and above, and a combination of both between the solar plexus and the waist (I am including knees when I say kicks and elbows when I say hand techs). A high kick at the right moment can certainly be a fight ender, but it is riskier than hand techniques.

One of the things that I have seen at many (I will stop short of saying most, though I suspect that most would be more accurate) taekwondo schools is a lack of training in hand techniques. Not a lack of learning them, but a lack of drilling in them consistently. Kicks are drilled in extensively in most taekwondo schools. Which is good; it is harder to learn to kick effectively than it is to learn to punch, but the hands should be drilled in to the same degree.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

How do you know?

One of us could easily be! Please don't make blanket assumptions like that, you could upset someone! You don't have to be famous to be an Elite.

While you are correct; one really does not know who is on the other end of the keyboard, elite fighters are not likely to get upset; elite fighters are generally not insecure and unlikely to be upset by such a statement. More than likely, an elite fighter would take such a statement in the spirit in which it was intended: the average practitioner, even a high ranking practitioner, is not an elite fighter.

T/F's statement may be a blanket one, but essentially true: the vast majority of us who practice martial arts are not elite fighters.

Essentially, what he is counciling against is defending the use of high risk/low chance of return techniques in SD just because an elite pro fighter who trains as his seven day a week job, trains in a manner much more intensive than what is seen in most dojos, and who has hundreds of competative fights can use them in a controled environment that minimizes the risks and where the fighter is in clothes specifically cut out for pro fighting and both opponents are wearing gloves, cups and mouthpieces.

A good example would be saying that it is not a bad idea to use a low guard in SD because it worked for Ali in his prime. Or because it works for Mark Lopez in WTF competition.

Daniel

 

[Twin Fist]

How do you know?

One of us could easily be! Please don't make blanket assumptions like that, you could upset someone! You don't have to be famous to be an Elite.

elite fighters are busy training and fighting, not posting

 

[Shaderon]

elite fighters are busy training and fighting, not posting

You know them all? I have met a few Elite fighters in diff MA's and I know for a fact that some of them hang about on Forums in thier spare time for the info which it provides. You can't train 24/7!
One girl who I train with sometimes at BB club is an Elite, she's totally unbeaten and I don't mean just in UK tournaments, she's in our England Squad and competes internationally, she doesn't train 24/7 and has a life.
And no I can't provide her name for proof, I only know her first name as she's not in my club.

 

[terryl965]

I will apologies right now because this is going to get ugly. I am Sorry to those of you that I will offend.

Elite fighters are you ****ing kidding me, they play a sport like boxing or MMA or ring sparring that does no eqaute to self defense. What the **** does an elite fighter really know about S.D. principles? nothing they understand and became great at playing a game like football players and such, an athlete does not and will not eqaute to elite S.D., two different approaches to the Art.

It just kills me when people cannot and will not understand one does not make the other. I have seen S.D. people wipe MMA or fighters up, because the fighters are not use to using what ever they have in there tool chest. They only know rules of engagaement in a stituation there are no rules survivals is the only winner. Please remember the two are both equally good but only one can really defend.:asian:

 

[d1jinx]

so would that be like a doublecheese burger and a mcchicken with cheese?
mmmmmmmmm........ doublecheeseburger..:fanboy:

 

[Errant108]

I will apologies right now because this is going to get ugly. I am Sorry to those of you that I will offend.

Your apology is not accepted.

If you're intending to offend someone with a statement, then "apologizing in advance" does not make your comments any less offensive. If you want to construct an argument that actually explains why you believe what you do, that's one thing, and that's something people can discuss. But posting vitriolic commentary with self-edited by blatantly obvious swearing is not helpful and doesn't really persuade me to believe your statements.

Elite fighters are you ****ing kidding me, they play a sport like boxing or MMA or ring sparring that does no eqaute to self defense.

Actually, it does. It allows for a controlled environment in which to develop skills to be applied outside of that environment. There is a difference in training for the ring and training for self-defense, but that does not negate the fact that alive, resistive training, and sparring are absolutely necessary for developing a solid set of reliable skills, a tool box, a delivery system that you can depend on.

You're creating a false dichotomy by saying the issue is "street vs. sport", when this is completely not the case.

What the **** does an elite fighter really know about S.D. principles?

How do we know that you or any other instructor of self-defense knows anything about self-defense principles? What requirements are you setting by making this statement?

What are "self-defense principles"?

Why does utilizing alive training metholody automatically mean ignorance of self-defense principles?

I have seen S.D. people wipe MMA or fighters up, because the fighters are not use to using what ever they have in there tool chest.

This is called anecdotal evidence. You say this, but offer no proof. Do you have videos of this happening? You expect us to believe you, but this proves nothing.

I've seen "S.D. people" get destroyed by MMA fighters because the tool box they thought they had was full of skills they couldn't actually apply in an alive environment.

Anecdotal evidence, contrasting yours.

No proof whatsoever.

They only know rules of engagaement in a stituation there are no rules survivals is the only winner. Please remember the two are both equally good but only one can really defend.:asian:

Are you telling me that an MMA fighter cannot defend against strikes, kicks, throws, and joint locks? Are you telling me that someone trained by the Dog Brothers cannot defend themselves against someone wielding a pipe, a stick, a bad, a bottle?

Really?

That their training hampers them?

What sort of training program would you recommend then?

 

[chrispillertkd]

Twin Fist,

I once had occassion to use a flying side kick on the street in SD of another.. i was about 20 feet away when he attacked the lady so I had a run up.. worked a charm! I also know of an occassion when a BB KO' someone (on the street) with a Jump Reverse Turning Kick.. though he was very good at it!

The bolded part above can apply to any technique used in self-defense can it not? If you can't execute a good, fast, powerful reverse punch I don't suggest using it if you're being attacked. If you can't do an effective back piercing kick in a high pressure sparring match in class don't do it if you have to defend yourself on the street. If you can do them well you have some very powerful weapons in your arsenal (heck, the jumping reverse turning kick you mentioned can be potentially devastating).

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

This thread is starting to remind me of one I read on the original ITF bulletain board some years ago. One gentleman posted that he had recently been the victim of an attempted mugging. He had, however, recently been training with another ITF stylist who was quite effective at executing a bituro chagi (twisting kick). Since he had been working on that particular technique for some time he rather naturally used it to defend himself against the would-be mugger. He was successful and the mugger was not.

I pointed out that while he was successful and survived a mugging (unscathed) that some people would undoubtedly take the opportunity to tell him "you did it wrong." As it so happens there was a bit of that reaction.

Pax,

Chris

 

[goingd]

I will apologies right now because this is going to get ugly. I am Sorry to those of you that I will offend.

Elite fighters are you ****ing kidding me, they play a sport like boxing or MMA or ring sparring that does no eqaute to self defense. What the **** does an elite fighter really know about S.D. principles? nothing they understand and became great at playing a game like football players and such, an athlete does not and will not eqaute to elite S.D., two different approaches to the Art.

It just kills me when people cannot and will not understand one does not make the other. I have seen S.D. people wipe MMA or fighters up, because the fighters are not use to using what ever they have in there tool chest. They only know rules of engagaement in a stituation there are no rules survivals is the only winner. Please remember the two are both equally good but only one can really defend.:asian:

When I say "elite fighters" I am not thinking of anything sport related. I mean people who genuinely know, and are darn good at what they train.

 

[Errant108]

I pointed out that while he was successful and survived a mugging (unscathed) that some people would undoubtedly take the opportunity to tell him "you did it wrong." As it so happens there was a bit of that reaction.

Agreed.

What you did, or what technique you use, is less important than how you train it. Are certain techniques "low percentage"? Certainly. However, if the opportunity for a high kick knock out exists for a moment during an encounter, and you miss that opportunity (or fail to succeed) because you have not trained your high kick sufficiently & properly, that is not the kick's fault, but you and your training methodology.

Like Bruce said, "I do not it, it hits all by itself."

 

[StuartA]

The bolded part above can apply to any technique used in self-defense can it not? If you can't execute a good, fast, powerful reverse punch I don't suggest using it if you're being attacked. If you can't do an effective back piercing kick in a high pressure sparring match in class don't do it if you have to defend yourself on the street. If you can do them well you have some very powerful weapons in your arsenal (heck, the jumping reverse turning kick you mentioned can be potentially devastating).

Pax,

Chris

Quite agree. As I said in my previous post, I mostly agree with basic SD principles ( kick low etc.).. just never say never is all!

I've seen a potential fight stopped by throwing a side kick just in front of someones face (by a security guard).. it was a gang of rowdy teens and they just went "wooah" and decided better than starting a fight in the first place!

Never say never!

Stuart

 

[StuartA]

you CAN drive a car with your feet

that dont make it a good idea

Please reread my post... I never said it was a good idea (certainly not for the general masses).. however, lets not forget also that "in theory" we have dedicated our lives to training a martial art, we train to do things the 'masses' can't.. if it was driving, perhaps that would be driving with our feet!

Just maybe!

Stuart

Cicero - the 6 mistakes of man - No. 3: Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it.

 

[Twin Fist]

you go ahead Stuart, let me know how it works out for you with those backwards roads and cars you guys have...lol

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

When I say "elite fighters" I am not thinking of anything sport related. I mean people who genuinely know, and are darn good at what they train.

That changes things a bit. What you describe is not elite, but advanced proficiency.

Generally, the term 'elite fighter' is not used outside of sport, mainly because sport is generally the only place where you have verifiable records and rules of engagement designed to test the skill of the fighters against one another. Cheap shots and such that one could use in SD, such as groin shots, eye gouges, and such are prohibited, both for the safety of the fighters and to keep the contest one of skill.

A lot of guys and gals know what they are doing and are very good at what they do, but that does not make them elite.

Lyoto Machida is an elite fighter. A guy who trains hard at the local Shotokan club and holds a fourth dan and is capable of defending himself with Shotokan karate is simply a skilled practitioner.

Nothing wrong with that, but when people use the term "elite fighter" it implies someone who is in the top 5% of competative fighters in some form of martial sport, be it MMA, Taekwondo, or boxing.

Daniel

 

[ralphmcpherson]

That changes things a bit. What you describe is not elite, but advanced proficiency.

Generally, the term 'elite fighter' is not used outside of sport, mainly because sport is generally the only place where you have verifiable records and rules of engagement designed to test the skill of the fighters against one another. Cheap shots and such that one could use in SD, such as groin shots, eye gouges, and such are prohibited, both for the safety of the fighters and to keep the contest one of skill.

A lot of guys and gals know what they are doing and are very good at what they do, but that does not make them elite.

Lyoto Machida is an elite fighter. A guy who trains hard at the local Shotokan club and holds a fourth dan and is capable of defending himself with Shotokan karate is simply a skilled practitioner.

Nothing wrong with that, but when people use the term "elite fighter" it implies someone who is in the top 5% of competative fighters in some form of martial sport, be it MMA, Taekwondo, or boxing.

Daniel

"elite fighter" is not a good term necessarilly for what we are discussing as by your terminology it only accounts for pro sport fighters. My instructor is a 6th dan , trains hard and is damn good. He has no interest whatsoever in sport fighting and yet I would consider him an elite fighter because if he got attacked a thousand times Id back him to win 995 times. Maybe we need another term instead of elite fighter.

 

[goingd]

What I imply, and what others' perceive are different things. Like I said, when I say elite, I do not mean anything sport related. To me, if you are elite, you are very good.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

What I imply, and what others' perceive are different things. Like I said, when I say elite, I do not mean anything sport related. To me, if you are elite, you are very good.

I agree. If only pro sports fighters are elite then there would not be many (if any) elite fighters in their 40's. And I know some very good fighters well over their 40's.