TKD and real self defense
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kerc
White Belt
Every month we get to learn a specific self-defense move, like how to block and neutralize a high swing with a club, how to block and disable your opponent on a front or back lapel grab, and so forth.
I don't think it's TKD-specific stuff, but it's pretty effective. This of course is mixed throughout classes with the regular Jhoon Rhee forms, hand combos, hand/foot combos, sparring, and weapon usage and forms.
I don't think it's TKD-specific stuff, but it's pretty effective. This of course is mixed throughout classes with the regular Jhoon Rhee forms, hand combos, hand/foot combos, sparring, and weapon usage and forms.
ATC
Senior Master
Well I posted in a thread that is now gone about this.
I think that many people take one steps to be TKD SD. I don't think this should be the case. I think one steps teach timing and basic principals but the instructor of the school needs to take this further.
SD is unpredictable and you can be attacked anywhere. Not just a punch or a kick come straight at you. SD should be taught from any situation. Someone running at you and attempting to tackle you, someone grabbing you from behind (bear hug, forearm neck lock, your hair, your arm(s), your shoulder, your leg(s), your wrist(s), the same from being attacked from the front, not to mention multiple attackers, that is SD.
SD is not pretty. It can be but most times it is not. SD is not about winning anything, it is about surviving. If you need to run then run. Running is SD at its best.
SD is about awareness. You need to be aware of your surroundings and if you can get away from a bad area then do it.
There is physical SD and mental SD. You can practice the mental all the time. This is being aware and having escape plans. Knowing where an exit or escape route is in case of a bad situation or seeing potential weapons that could be used to help fend off an attacker. The physical should be practice enough to where you won't freeze up when the real thing happens.
SD should be practiced daily by the individual. You can practice only so much in class.
SD is not just one steps.
I think that many people take one steps to be TKD SD. I don't think this should be the case. I think one steps teach timing and basic principals but the instructor of the school needs to take this further.
SD is unpredictable and you can be attacked anywhere. Not just a punch or a kick come straight at you. SD should be taught from any situation. Someone running at you and attempting to tackle you, someone grabbing you from behind (bear hug, forearm neck lock, your hair, your arm(s), your shoulder, your leg(s), your wrist(s), the same from being attacked from the front, not to mention multiple attackers, that is SD.
SD is not pretty. It can be but most times it is not. SD is not about winning anything, it is about surviving. If you need to run then run. Running is SD at its best.
SD is about awareness. You need to be aware of your surroundings and if you can get away from a bad area then do it.
There is physical SD and mental SD. You can practice the mental all the time. This is being aware and having escape plans. Knowing where an exit or escape route is in case of a bad situation or seeing potential weapons that could be used to help fend off an attacker. The physical should be practice enough to where you won't freeze up when the real thing happens.
SD should be practiced daily by the individual. You can practice only so much in class.
SD is not just one steps.
Manny
Senior Master
We practice SD maybe once every two or three months, one step sparring is the same just one or two days before the testing/examination, this is something sad but I have to realize my sambunim's focus on children so maybe he don't give SD the place it deserves inside his dojang.
Manny
Manny
kerc
White Belt
Interesting...Our Master focuses a lot on the kids when teaching self defense, and makes it very clear about the difference between fighting another child or an adult.
"Common sense before self defense" is something he always mentions, and that includes...if you gotta run, or can run and avoid fighting, do so! And also, talk and/or kiyap out loud befor and during self-defense, so that other people can hear you and help you out.
All in all, pretty useful stuff, even for the kiddies.
There would *be* no problems with TKD SD if only they'd ditch that Olympic, lawyer proof Powder puff sparring. That's all that needs ditching.
Our self- defense curriculum at the school I attend is Ok. There are 10 self-defense techs and 10 one step punch sparring techs to be learned for 1st dan...another 8 SD and 5 one step punch tech for 2nd dan. Most are prettys ound...there are a few really questionable ones though. At later ranks, we are asked to do a lot of creation stuff (first to specific techs, then instant creation...wich usually just turns into freestyle sparring at the later levels). It;s not a smooth and in depth as my taijutsu training...but pretty good.
We also incoporate grappling and submission work into our curriculum and sparring at later levels as well.
for myself, I do a lot of extra work with the poomse/kata practicing SD stuff for the katas with willing/resistant partners.
the stuff is there, you jsut have to train it. ....oh, and I also participate in that "powder puff" sparing too...got my rib bruised (through my hogu) at the last competition I was at...FWIW
Peace,
Erik
We also incoporate grappling and submission work into our curriculum and sparring at later levels as well.
for myself, I do a lot of extra work with the poomse/kata practicing SD stuff for the katas with willing/resistant partners.
the stuff is there, you jsut have to train it. ....oh, and I also participate in that "powder puff" sparing too...got my rib bruised (through my hogu) at the last competition I was at...FWIW
Peace,
Erik
zeke1975
White Belt
At our Dojang we do forms one week and one step/SD the next week, so of every 4 weeks in a given month, we do form for 2 of those weeks and onestep/SD for the other 2. We do 3 one step scenarios at each gup level. We also do 3 different SD techniques (including hapkido joint locks) at each gup level. Each gup level's SD techniques are usually related to a specific situation, for example, the attacker grabbing you by the hair, bear hug from behind, right wrist grab, left wrist grab, shirt grab, etc.
Erik
Erik
Manny
Senior Master
Different aproaches, so please don't flame on me. In a regular week of training in dojagng we do a lot of kicking, a little poomsae and regulary fridays is kyorugi time at the end of the class. So let me put this in percentages 70% kicks, 15% poomsae,15% kyorugi..... so were is self defense techs?.
One week before kup examination everything changes 80% poomsae, 10% one step sparring and 5% board breaking.
Just for the record and nothing else, in a regular class of kenpo we do 80% self defense techs and 20% forms or kata.
Don't know but I think in a TKD week of training the average student must to have kcking/punching,etc,etc, techs, poomsae,self defense and a little kyorugi to have a well rounded class, don't you think?
Manny
One week before kup examination everything changes 80% poomsae, 10% one step sparring and 5% board breaking.
Just for the record and nothing else, in a regular class of kenpo we do 80% self defense techs and 20% forms or kata.
Don't know but I think in a TKD week of training the average student must to have kcking/punching,etc,etc, techs, poomsae,self defense and a little kyorugi to have a well rounded class, don't you think?
Manny
zeke1975
White Belt
What I mentioned in the post above is the curriculum we do. that's pretty much done in the 2nd half of each class, for the first half of each class, we stretch, do kicking/punching drills and sparring technique drills. So it works out that in a 1 hour class we'll do drills for 1/2 hr and form/SD/onestep curriculum for 1/2hr. We do some non-contact sparring in normal classes as well. We then have Adult sparring class on Friday nights where those that are interested can do contact sparring.
Erik
dancingalone
Grandmaster
I've observed that many schools teach SD as an afterthought and as a 'separate' activity. It's the same case with forms. You have your basics and warmups, your pattern practice, your sparring, and of yeah, let's do some self defense. None of the activities flow into each other - it's almost like they have nothing to do with each other.
Self defense needs to start first with your basics. If the teacher makes the mistake of only showing his students the formalized punching and kicking 'rituals', they'll never see the open possibilities from each gross physical movement, such as a palm heel thrust serving as an intercepting push block to the shoulder. The same problem lies in just practicing patterns according to the 'textbook'. If you never take the time to teach each segment of a form as a case study for self-defense, the pattern will remain dead to your students.
Teaching so-called self-defense is a staple for me. After a warmup, I drill basic movements and combinations, including stepping, circling, turning, and throwing. Then I teach explicit bunkai from a designated kata with variations depending on the attack, whether straight or circular on differing height zones. We usually conclude by practicing the kata together to help reinforce it as a training method when one is alone.
Self defense needs to start first with your basics. If the teacher makes the mistake of only showing his students the formalized punching and kicking 'rituals', they'll never see the open possibilities from each gross physical movement, such as a palm heel thrust serving as an intercepting push block to the shoulder. The same problem lies in just practicing patterns according to the 'textbook'. If you never take the time to teach each segment of a form as a case study for self-defense, the pattern will remain dead to your students.
Teaching so-called self-defense is a staple for me. After a warmup, I drill basic movements and combinations, including stepping, circling, turning, and throwing. Then I teach explicit bunkai from a designated kata with variations depending on the attack, whether straight or circular on differing height zones. We usually conclude by practicing the kata together to help reinforce it as a training method when one is alone.
goingd
Purple Belt
My curriculum for self defense before 1st Dan is:
10 one step sparring techniques (as a basic introduction to self defense)
10 Hapkido techniques (on both sides)
Once students have that base, at 1st Dan it is:
10 form applications (on both sides)
These form applications go beyond hard block against strikes - they also cover the grabbing, joint locks and take downs "hidden" within the forms.
At 2nd Dan and above:
Students demonstrate their own form applications.
This is done to force students to think about the possibilities. I think the application of forms is incredibly important.
10 one step sparring techniques (as a basic introduction to self defense)
10 Hapkido techniques (on both sides)
Once students have that base, at 1st Dan it is:
10 form applications (on both sides)
These form applications go beyond hard block against strikes - they also cover the grabbing, joint locks and take downs "hidden" within the forms.
At 2nd Dan and above:
Students demonstrate their own form applications.
This is done to force students to think about the possibilities. I think the application of forms is incredibly important.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
there is a good reason why i teach kenpo techniques in my school.
TKD, in and of itself, lacks depth in self defense
some instructors add it in, but the system itself doesnt contain a lot of SD training by default.
and the more korean the school, the shallower the self defense training, in general.
and if you walk in and see a v neck uniform? in general, dont expect to learn actual self defense
TKD, in and of itself, lacks depth in self defense
some instructors add it in, but the system itself doesnt contain a lot of SD training by default.
and the more korean the school, the shallower the self defense training, in general.
and if you walk in and see a v neck uniform? in general, dont expect to learn actual self defense
goingd
Purple Belt
How, specifically, does Taekwondo lack depth in self defense?
Which system of Taekwondo are you referring to?
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
TKD is, untill you add things to it, a very basic kick/punch art.
joint locks? those are not a part of TKD, those have been imported in from hapkido.
judging by the responses here, not many schools put an emphasis on the SD part.
Plus, since TKD is based on Shotokan, it tends to go back to the "one punch kill" non sense from traditional karate.
now of course this varies by instructor, but the actual original syllabus doesnt contain anything but punches and kicks, and chops.
for that matter, the ridgehand wasnt originally taught in TKD.
K31
Blue Belt
What my school calls SD is mostly, joint locks, escapes from holds and even some ground work but it is taught on an irregular basis. Sometimes it is done with the caveat that we will be tested on it but I've never seen it tested. As to the kiddies comment, I was thinking about that the other day. SD is taught as a separate discipline almost kicking, punching and forms isn't focused on that. In my previous exposures to MAs we were taught the weak points of the body, in this school I've never heard that mentioned, I assume it's because they teach kids.
goingd
Purple Belt
On the outside Taekwondo is a very "basic" kick/punch art. The motions of the forms can be used for anything. They can be used for joint locks, take downs, releases - not just striking. Many Taekwondoists do not recognize the motions that set up the techniques - i.e. aiming for a punch or block. These motions count too. I don't honestly know what original syllabus you're referring to, but the first generation Taekwondo masters I know teach these things based off of what is in the forms, and not what is borrowed from Hapkido.
The one time I had to use Taekwondo, I used one strike and finished the confrontation. The over-skill concept often taught in Kenpo is an excellent concept to follow, but it is not the only right way.
