TKD and HKD

[Seth T.]

According to Ji Han Jae he did learn some kicks from Choi but supplemented them with Taekkyon (forgive my spelling, it may not be correct) kicks that he learned from Taoist Lee. I have only met him a few times, but he is my instructor's teacher and my instructor has never mentioned any kicks being specifically borrowed from karate or TKD.

What I can tell you from experience though is that in Ji Han Jae's system, Sin Moo Hapkido, we have a few kicks that most TKD practitioners would recognize right away, but the majority of them they would not.

 

[zDom]

Appriciate the reply zDom. I've often wondered how Hapkidoists, myself included, have always taken to the given offering that TKD borrowed from Hapkido, when in reality it's the other way around to a great extent. My rational for this is that when Choi started teaching his version of what we now call Hapkido, kicks we've been given to understand, were not that important and were minimal at best. Jae Han Ji, it's reported, is the one who introduced the kicking segment and the name "Hapkido". Now since Choi didn't have these kicks and Ji did, it stands to reason that Ji learned them from Karate, so this then tends to lead us to the conclusion that Hapkido borrowed from Korean Karate and not the other way around. Before Choi came back to Korea, Koreans were doing whatever form of Japanese karate that was in vouge at the time, so the time line for inclusion of techniques (kicks) stems from this assessment. If it's agreed that this line of thinking is/should be correct, then whatever subtlies exist between the kicking aspects of TKD vs HKD are nothing more than personal preference, dictated by whatever school one is attending. *A disclaimer here is warranted..........I'm not refering to todays "sport TKD", but rather the pre-sport or old school, as folks like to call it, TKD.

According to Ji Han Jae he did learn some kicks from Choi but supplemented them with Taekkyon (forgive my spelling, it may not be correct) kicks that he learned from Taoist Lee. I have only met him a few times, but he is my instructor's teacher and my instructor has never mentioned any kicks being specifically borrowed from karate or TKD.

What I can tell you from experience though is that in Ji Han Jae's system, Sin Moo Hapkido, we have a few kicks that most TKD practitioners would recognize right away, but the majority of them they would not.

According to Hapkido histories I've read (the best among the being Dakin Burdick's), two men are credited with expanding hapkido's kicking beyond what Choi brought back: KIM, Moo Woong and Ji Han Jae.



Wikipedia, which references Dr. He-young KIMM's "Hapkido Bible" says:

Kim Moo Hong
Main article: Kim Moo Hong
(alternately rendered as Kim Moo Woong or Kim Mu Hyun)
A student from the Choi and Suh's Yu Sool Kwan dojang was Kim Moo Hong who later taught at Suh's Joong Ang dojang in Daegu. Suh, who promoted Kim to 4th degree, credits Kim with the development of many kicks which are still used in hapkido today. Kim apparentally took the concepts from very basic kicks he had learned from Choi and went to a temple to work on developing them to a much greater degree. Later, in 1961, Kim travelled to Seoul and while staying at Ji Han Jae's Sung Moo Kwan dojang they finalized the kicking curriculum.

TKD, which came from Shotokan, had only a couple kicks when it started out: (front, side, round?)

My instructor, Master Mike Morton, was told by his instructor, GM Lee H. Park, that most of TKD's kicks were borrowed from hapkido.

Park was a student of WON, Kwang-Wha (a student of Suh Bok-sub and Choi) who founded the (Korean) Musulkwan.

(Interestingly, information about WON, Kwang-Wha was been REMOVED from the hapkido entry and from Wikipedia entirely.. hmm)

Kim Moo Woong also taught at WON's Musulkwan.


There is no doubt that Park's kicking (and by extention, mine) comes from Kim Moo Woong.

This same kicking would have also been used in Park's TKD.

Seth's, obviously, comes from Ji Han Jae.

Documentation will be impossible or nearly so to find. But oral history seems to be on the mark (and consistent on this matter): TKD borrowed kicks from hapkido to become the "kicking art" it is today.

Of course, it makes a better story for TKD to claim it goes directly back to taekyon, but there has been PLENTY written about that.

Going back to the kicking in MSK in particular: As it ALL came from Park, yea — chances are it is more of a matter of mindset of TKD/HKD students that makes the kicking different — but differences are evident nonetheless

 

[hapkidonet]

Manny,

I have received my 2nd dan in Judo, purple in hapkido-upper belt, and will test for purple in Tae Kwan do on the next test. I took essentially a yr. and a half between hard core tkd and kept up more readily with hapkido. However, the time taken away from Tae Kwon Do was the beginning of starting my judo class in the st. louis school. I can test for purple any time for purple in tkd. However, I have been working with the kids and lower ranks so much it is making my basics better. BTW: I am crippled from the Marine Corps where the long and short of the scenerio is that I wear a custom fit titanium leg brace on each leg and walk with a cane.

So remember my friend, slow and steady wins the race and you will come out victorious, only if you believe yourself to be able to do so.

I congratulate you on your determination. You set an example for the rest of us.

 

[howard]

According to Hapkido histories I've read (the best among the being Dakin Burdick's), two men are credited with expanding hapkido's kicking beyond what Choi brought back...

Regarding what Choi brought back, it was a very limited kicking repertoire. This stands to reason, because he learned a style of jujutsu, and the traditional styles of jujutsu have few kicking techniques.

To see the ten basic kicking applications that Choi taught, you can go to the Jungkikwan website (link below). From the home page, select "English", then scroll down the page until you see the "Hapkido kicks" link in the left column. Click there to see the ten kicks that Choi taught.

It's noteworthy too that Choi taught that high kicks are dangerous because if you miss, they leave you off balance and, therefore, vulnerable
to counters. Keeping your own balance, and taking your opponent's balance at the moment his attack is initiated (and never allowing him to regain it), are very important fundametal principles of Choi's teachings.

Link: http://jungkikwan.com/

 

[hapkidonet]

Appriciate the reply zDom. I've often wondered how Hapkidoists, myself included, have always taken to the given offering that TKD borrowed from Hapkido, when in reality it's the other way around to a great extent. My rational for this is that when Choi started teaching his version of what we now call Hapkido, kicks we've been given to understand, were not that important and were minimal at best. Jae Han Ji, it's reported, is the one who introduced the kicking segment and the name "Hapkido". Now since Choi didn't have these kicks and Ji did, it stands to reason that Ji learned them from Karate...

That's where you lost me. How does that stand to reason? Native Korean martial arts have always emphasized kicks. And karate kicks are far more limited in scope than Hapkido. It makes much more sense that Ji Han Jae would have learned his kicks from Korean monks and masters who had preserved native techniques.

 

[zDom]

Regarding what Choi brought back, it was a very limited kicking repertoire. This stands to reason, because he learned a style of jujutsu, and the traditional styles of jujutsu have few kicking techniques.

To see the ten basic kicking applications that Choi taught, you can go to the Jungkikwan website (link below). From the home page, select "English", then scroll down the page until you see the "Hapkido kicks" link in the left column. Click there to see the ten kicks that Choi taught.

It's noteworthy too that Choi taught that high kicks are dangerous because if you miss, they leave you off balance and, therefore, vulnerable
to counters. Keeping your own balance, and taking your opponent's balance at the moment his attack is initiated (and never allowing him to regain it), are very important fundametal principles of Choi's teachings.

Link: http://jungkikwan.com/

This is why many maintain that while Choi is responsible for the modern hapkido, it wasn't really hapkido until his students expanded on what he had taught them.

We do (in MSK) still train the low kicks, btw, and understand those are almost always the "best option" in self defense/combat. But then due to Kim Moo Woong's influence, we also kick high in training and practice other dynamic kicking (one of the things Won's Musulkwan was known for).

This emphasis on low kicking is yet another difference between HKD and TKD kicking. We spend a LOT more time "below the belt" than our TKD cousins.

The kick shown as #7 at Howard's link (best described, IMO, as an inverted hook kick to the back of the knee), for example, is one that we do but I have never seen TKD practitioners train.

 

[matt.m]

Well, I couldn't agree more with zDom. My dad is his instructor, btw. I still maintain that it is all about the mechanics and reason the kick is used/taught for that makes the difference. Not only that but zDom is 100% correct. We believe in low kicking, yeah high kicking is great and we do practice them. However, knee and mid section are key.

In TKD when doing sparring drills I was always told something to the effect of "Turn the heel kicks into crescents," or "Rotate your back leg to do the 'TKD' arc kick, not the 'hapkido' arc kick.

Like z said, the differences are subtle but quite obvious to the trained eye.