TKD/HKD - Childs Play

[Disco]

Just finished an interesting review of a post on another site, that dealt with what was going on - training wise in Korea. It was stated that only children are training in TKD and HKD. This was from a person who is now living in Korea and decided to take MA's training. He also stipulated that they are handing out Black Belts like candy. He received his first dan in TKD in 10 months and now switched over to HKD, but stated the same time frame for 1st dan in that also. He said he was very disappointed with the whole proceedings. If that's what's going on, kind of makes what's happing here in the U.S. seem hypocritical, if the home office dosen't practice what they preach.

 

[Black Belt FC]

Greetings,



Where did you read that report? In my school NO ONE will get their black belt in TKD or HKD with no less than 400 classes or 3 years......

Lugo

 

[Disco]

Lugo, perhaps here in the U.S. that's the norm, but apparently that's not the norm in Korea. At least that's part of what I derive from the post. It's on budoseek.net - Korean section - HKD/TKD.

 

[brothershaw]

I see that 400 classes/3 years is the minimum for somebody who is really dedicated/ good. Whats the average 6-8 years?

 

[ShaolinWolf]

I did read the original Master of ATA TKD, H.U. Lee received his black belt in Korea in 1 year. Of course, they trained alot. It was rigorous training and he earned it. I've heard TKD schools in Korea and some other schools handing out black belts in 1 years time. It's interesting, but then again, some of the training in other countries can be more of a work out and is/can be quite a bit tougher. Most of the time it is.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Disco:

I consider it something of a "wake-up call".

For a few decades, now, when someone was required to autheticate what they said, or what they taught they could simply say "thats the way its done in Korea". Language and distance prevented people from verifying what they were told. The typical magazine, MA book and class was rife with information often based solely on "...'cuz my teacher said".

Since the advent of the Internet such constructions and misrepresentations no longer hold water. I can communicate with people in Korea in minutes and such statements as, say, "the KMAIA is the premier organization in Korea" are revealed for the garbage that they are. Even further, as people age in the KMA they develope intellectual skills to ask the right questions and seek out objective sources. Stories about long years secluded in mountains and education under the tutelage of obscure monks collapse under the weight of evidence to the contrary.

To my mind the result is a long overdue wake-up to the KMA as it really is and not the romantic version people would like it to be. People who are seriously interested in the martial science of the Korean culture will dedicate themselves to long days of research and practice. The rest of the folks who are looking for fancy paper and exotic costumes will continue to meander from organization to organization looking for some Ultimate MA Holy Grail as bequeathed by the Hwa Rang warriors.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[ShaolinWolf]

I did read the original Master of ATA TKD, H.U. Lee received his black belt in Korea in 1 year. Of course, they trained alot. It was rigorous training and he earned it. I've heard TKD schools in Korea and some other schools handing out black belts in 1 years time. It's interesting, but then again, some of the training in other countries can be more of a work out and is/can be quite a bit tougher. Most of the time it is.

Of course this was back in the 1950s. LOL.

 

[Disco]

Of course this was back in the 1950s. LOL.

Apparently, according to postings from people on other sites who are stationed/working and training in Korea, this is the norm in Korea even now.

 

[Andi]

It was stated that only children are training in TKD and HKD.

Did they say what adults were training in? Another art or not at all?

 

[Disco]

The information they give is that adult training is non-exsistant.

 

[brothershaw]

I would imagine that if tkd is part of the public school program, there would be little need for adult training, since by the time you were an adult you had already been doing it all your life, and either hated it or were good enough to keep practicing on your own. I know someone from korea and they while into martial arts didnt seem to have a great opinion of tkd in korea or in general. I will ask them about it when i see them again.
I personally feel tkd is as good as the person who practices it.

 

[brothershaw]

Asked a korean friend about tkd in korea and was told its not taught in schools, it is taught to the military but not the sport version commonly seen, i would imagine a more self defense oriented version.

 

[mcjon77]

I don't see why the one year time frame for a 1st dan is new to people. I remember multiple articles have been written about people who train in Korea in HKD, KSW, and TKMS receiving a 1st dan in about a year. One article in the (now defunct) magazine Martial Arts Training said that the time to first dan was usually 1 year, with second dan coming a year later and 3rd dan 2 years after that. He also stated that, unlike here, a 1st dan isn't a big deal. They don't consider you a serious student until about 3rd dan. One difference is that people who train in Korea (from what I have read) are expected to train 6 days a week, as opposed to the standard 2 or 3 days a week in the US.

Jon

 

[howard]

I don't see why the one year time frame for a 1st dan is new to people. I remember multiple articles have been written about people who train in Korea in HKD, KSW, and TKMS receiving a 1st dan in about a year. One article in the (now defunct) magazine Martial Arts Training said that the time to first dan was usually 1 year, with second dan coming a year later and 3rd dan 2 years after that. He also stated that, unlike here, a 1st dan isn't a big deal. They don't consider you a serious student until about 3rd dan. One difference is that people who train in Korea (from what I have read) are expected to train 6 days a week, as opposed to the standard 2 or 3 days a week in the US.

Jon

jon, you make some good points. 1st dan seems to be held almost in awe in the u.s., whereas the koreans do seem to view it more as the first major milestone - it means you have achieved proficiency in the basic techniques of your art. also, the one-year time frame to 1st dan is common in our kwan in korea. but, the guys who earn 1st dan in one year usually train 6 days a week, pretty intensely.

 

[brothershaw]

Regarding awe of first dan. From my experience in a few arts most people who start training in anything usually quit within the first 2 months or so. THe people who have stuck it out to first dan or beyond tend to be more serious aoubt the arts than anybody else and not to mention much better( of course). That is partially because alot of people when they realize how much work that goes into it, how painful it can be etc. call it quits or try something else. I have personally been in that camp before, and am trying real hard to stay out of it. Also due to movies or whatever people think the black belt means expert, ( and compared to a beginner a black belt does look like an expert or should look like one).
If someone has the time and energy to become a black belt in one year
more power to them.

 

[Han-Mi]

I don't care if you do nothing but train 8 hours/day for an entire year, you still won't be as good as a blackbelt that learned over 3-6 years. There are just so many experiences that you cannot cram into such a short amount of time. As to the article(I didn't read it, sorry) but I'm sure it isn't completely correct. I know that the military trains in TKD because the GM of my small branch of chung do kwan tae kwon do used to train them, And I also know that he tought other adults in Korea. I'm not saying they are liars, I'm saying that they are quite possibly generalizing. Besides, who cares what they do, As long as you are comfortable with your school and system, you should be fine.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Our Grandmaster told us that in Korea, earning a 1st Dan in one year is possible because students tend to train 6 days a week several hours at a time. I don't know if it's true now, but it was then. It would be impossible in America since most people train 2 hours a day, 2-3 days a week. We have work, school, and families.
He also said what some people have posted: You aren't taken seriously as a Tae Kwon Do student until about 3rd Dan. However, he added something else. When he was training, there was a lot of gang violence and fighting in Korea (post Korean War). Many of the Black belts were gang members because of their fighting ability. As a result, not only were lower black belts not really respected, many of them were held in contempt by the general public who assumed they were all streetfighters. Only after you achieved 4th Dan or higher were you respected as a Black Belt because it was felt you weren't in Tae Kwon Do just to fight. Don't know how it is now.
Finally, Tae Kwon Do in Korea is the same as it is in America: upwards of 95% are McDojangs taught by low class Instructors who only care about money and don't teach TKD seriously, same as in America. These are my Korean-born Grandmaster's words, not mine. There are some well run professional schools, but not many.

 

[glad2bhere]

I think I am following what people are saying about Black Belts, but it seems to raise a question.

If the Black Belt is not given due respect until much farther along, of what possible use are the guep ranks? For me, the gueps are the level at which a person finds out about the goodness-of-fit between the art and ones' Self. The BB is a symbol of dedication to the manner in which one chooses to follow the Path, yes? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[SmellyMonkey]

I've given-up caring about belt rank a few months ago. (Only been training Hapkido for 1.5 years..still a beginner).

To me, belt rank is a low-quality symbol of a student's dedication to the art. In my dojang, students are promoted from white to red based on months of training, not on skill level. There are red belts who still do not understand the basic theories of the art, and there are blue belts who are close to becoming proficient with the basics.

Is it so important for us to have belts? You know, besides to hold our dobak closed. I don't think so anymore. I really can't think of one positive reason to have different ranks. The only rank that matters is the rank you give youself, when you look at your skills and weaknesses in an impartial way.

 

[glad2bhere]

"....Is it so important for us to have belts?...."

Well, yes and no.

Before the occupation there never was a use of either belts OR fancy titles. There is STILL no term in the Korean language for "grandmaster" or "supreme grandmaster." Kanos' original idea for belts was to be able to track progress and---more importantly--- match up Judo players of comparable skills.

Used to be I supported the idea of belt ranks if only for these reasons. Now, I note that people rarely, if ever, actually subscribe to a single teacher or kwan long enough to earn the ranks legitimately. Start a school and when you have a few students organizations start promising rank and standing just to get your revenues moving there way. So whether you have belts or don't have belts people are going dedicate themselves (or not) to the MA. The only issue that really gripes me about belts is that people get administrative ranks (7th dan and above) and represent them as though they are a measure of ones' technical skill. My experience with most teachers is that once you get past a certain point they stop investing themselves in the learning process such that a 5th dan and a 3rd dan may know pretty much the same things, and that is really sad to think of for the future of KMA. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce