Time for a Change?

[Sukerkin]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21094962

This is the sort of data that has been at the back of my mind whenever I have posted here on the problems that accrue with an economic system that functions to draw up and isolate the wealth that is the product of the labour of the majority.

It cannot continue indefinitely, not just because it is somewhat morally dysfunctional for it to do so but because it is economically unstable. Historically, there is a tipping point reached where the economy falls apart as what is modelled as the circular flow of income collapses because too much of the liquid assets are in too few hands and do not contribute to meaningful economic activity.

 

[K-man]

I have had similar thoughts as I've watched the inequality grow over the past decade. But, what can you do about it? :idunno:

 

[billc]

Use a flat tax with a 40-50 thousand dollar exemption. The "progressive," taxes don't hurt the extremely wealthy, but they do block those trying to move up from getting wealthy. That is why the really wealthy support these proggressive tax rates... the Bill Gate's and Warren Buffet's...they want to block their competition, while they protect their wealth in their charitable foundations. Get rid of the blocks to the poor and middle class changing their position, and the wealth will follow.

 

[James Kovacich]

The only chance a flat tax has to level the playing field. That means taking away all the tax loopholes that primarily benefit the rich. By that I mean people with less money can't take advantage of them because they have no money in the 1st place. Lets say we have a 10% flat tax. Without closing the loopholes, the rich will still be paying +o or - 5% while the rest of us pay are 10%.

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[Dirty Dog]

A flat tax (with a minimum income exemption) is the only way to go. No loopholes. No deductions. No shelters.

It'll never happen, though. The people who would have to make it happen have a vested interest in preventing it from happening. Not to mention the spike in unemployment when all the IRS people, tax lawyers and such are no longer needed.

 

[Tgace]

Flat Tax.

 

[Sukerkin]

Use a flat tax with a 40-50 thousand dollar exemption. The "progressive," taxes don't hurt the extremely wealthy, but they do block those trying to move up from getting wealthy.

I confess that that is truly a point I had not given full voice to in the past, the way that an ill chosen ratio of progressive taxation could be quite a destructive force at a 'revealed' boundary. I have ever worked on the assumption that the calculations would take such things into account ... but then I should have given more credence to the fact that we are talking about government implementation which in turn means that 'compromises' would certainly muddle the economic water :nods:.

 

[Steve]

Use a flat tax with a 40-50 thousand dollar exemption. The "progressive," taxes don't hurt the extremely wealthy, but they do block those trying to move up from getting wealthy. That is why the really wealthy support these proggressive tax rates... the Bill Gate's and Warren Buffet's...they want to block their competition, while they protect their wealth in their charitable foundations. Get rid of the blocks to the poor and middle class changing their position, and the wealth will follow.

I'm for this (provided the tax on income includes all income and not just wages.) But I also believe that we would already have this if it would benefit the wealthy.


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[granfire]

I'm for this (provided the tax on income includes all income and not just wages.) But I also believe that we would already have this if it would benefit the wealthy.


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that's why not.

 

[ballen0351]

Im more fond of a National Sales Tax with no Income Taxes at all. That way if you want to save your money its tax free, there are no loop holes you buy something you pay a tax. It then taxes all forms of illegal income like drug sales, under the table workers, illegal immigrants, ect. Used Items and food are tax exempt. Give Elderly and low income households a reduced rate.

 

[Sukerkin]

An interesting point, Ballen. I would can only ponder that why governments would not be too strongly in favour of that is that is introduces an element of uncertainty into the tax take.

 

[ballen0351]

An interesting point, Ballen. I would can only ponder that why governments would not be too strongly in favour of that is that is introduces an element of uncertainty into the tax take.

No different then the tax take on wages when millions of people loose there jobs like we have now. With a sales tax even people without jobs still go to the store and buy things so income will still come in. Gov needs to earn to live within its means just like the people. With more people bringing home more money every week they would likely spend more increasing the taxes going to the govt. The rich pay more since they buy more and more expensive things, the poor pay less because they buy less and cheaper items. Its a win win for everyone. The Left gets its tax increase on the rich, the right gets the poor to pay into the system. I get to save my money tax free until Im ready to spend it. More people have more money to invest giving capital to companies to expand which creates more jobs. Charge a higher % to companies that manufacture products overseas and lower rates for companies that make things at home.

 

[Steve]

Im more fond of a National Sales Tax with no Income Taxes at all. That way if you want to save your money its tax free, there are no loop holes you buy something you pay a tax. It then taxes all forms of illegal income like drug sales, under the table workers, illegal immigrants, ect. Used Items and food are tax exempt. Give Elderly and low income households a reduced rate.

Once again, it's all fine and good, but if it was a good idea for the rich, we would already have it. Point I'm making is that the wealthy are not being victimized. If they stood to gain from a move to a flat tax or a national sales tax, we would have it. It would happen. But we don't.


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[billc]

Since this is about changing the system...here is the defense of capitalism by Daniel Hannan from Great Britain...I hope he isn't a bad guy because he defends the free market system far better than anyone over here...it would be great if he would move here...

the video is about 9 minutes long, he defends free markets, explains why the bail outs weren't capitalism, why more "regulation," isn't the answer and will only increase the "too big to fail," problem and generally does what most conservatives couldn't do if their lives depended on it...

http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/0...an-delivers-electrifying-take-down-of-occupy/

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[h=3]Daniel Hannan | Occupy Wall Street Debate | Oxford Union[/h]by OxfordUnion•1 week ago•5,823 views


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[Sukerkin]

This is Mr. Hannan's European Parliament 'page':

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/4555/DANIEL_HANNAN.html

I have not heard of him in economic circles, so until I have a watch of the clip I shall not prejudge. He is a qualified historian tho', so that should help him have some perspective at least, even if he does turn out to have a bias.

 

[billc]

Well, in truth, everyone has a bias, he just defends his bias really well...

 

[cdunn]

An interesting point, Ballen. I would can only ponder that why governments would not be too strongly in favour of that is that is introduces an element of uncertainty into the tax take.

The same problem that you point out in your initial post causes it to fail long term.