Thief Dies After Being Shot By Robbery Victim
- Thread starter Bill Mattocks
- Start date
Well done that chap. I do have mixed responses to such events I confess. On the one hand I think that it will make the bad guys think twice before engaging in a criminal act. On the other I can't help but ponder that it will just make them more violent and more likely to kill their victim first.
Unlike some of the examples that have been posted around here, (unarmed criminals running away and being shot), as soon as you add a gun into the commission of a criminal act, you notch everything up 100 fold. The man did what he had to do to preserve his life. Sadly they were both teens, but they still should have known better.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #4
I look at things a bit more pragmatically. I'm not terribly interested in 'sending a message', nor in trying to read the tea leaves and infer what may happen in the future if more citizens go about armed and choose to fight back rather than surrender.
As you know, I'm also not into macho posing or chest-thumping, nor do I always feel that an armed response is the best one for any given self-defense scenario. Do not forget, the victim could just as easily have been shot dead by the also-armed muggers.
As I've said many times before, I favor self-defense in the sense of defending my life first and foremost, whether that means to run or to hand over the wallet or to shoot them directly in the noggin - it very much depends upon the circumstances.
When I scanned Google News this morning for the phrase 'Victim "fought back"', I also found stories of victims who fought back and got shot for their efforts. So it is always a risk, and I do not proffer an 'always shoot if confronted' solution.
However, my main interest is in my survival, not the future impact that might have on society at large. If a person sticks a gun up my snoot and demands my cash, he may well get it, if I believe that is the rational response. Or, I might decorate the inside of the car wash bay with his brains, if that seems to be the safest response for me at that time.
I do in general subscribe to the theory that an armed society is a polite society. What little tea-leaf reading I have done has shown a couple things that reinforce my beliefs. First is the precipitous drop in gun crime in states that have liberalized carry laws, and second is the huge drop in carjackings in Florida after the rental care manufacturers stopped putting ID on the car letting crooks know it was a rental (meaning the owner was from out of state and hence probably unarmed due to lack of reciprocal carry laws across state lines). Crooks do seem to respond to the threat that victims might be armed by going elsewhere to perform their activities. And finally, it would seem that criminals in general prey upon the weak, like any predator in the wild. If they think you're likely NOT the weak, they'll pick another target.
As you know, I'm also not into macho posing or chest-thumping, nor do I always feel that an armed response is the best one for any given self-defense scenario. Do not forget, the victim could just as easily have been shot dead by the also-armed muggers.
As I've said many times before, I favor self-defense in the sense of defending my life first and foremost, whether that means to run or to hand over the wallet or to shoot them directly in the noggin - it very much depends upon the circumstances.
When I scanned Google News this morning for the phrase 'Victim "fought back"', I also found stories of victims who fought back and got shot for their efforts. So it is always a risk, and I do not proffer an 'always shoot if confronted' solution.
However, my main interest is in my survival, not the future impact that might have on society at large. If a person sticks a gun up my snoot and demands my cash, he may well get it, if I believe that is the rational response. Or, I might decorate the inside of the car wash bay with his brains, if that seems to be the safest response for me at that time.
I do in general subscribe to the theory that an armed society is a polite society. What little tea-leaf reading I have done has shown a couple things that reinforce my beliefs. First is the precipitous drop in gun crime in states that have liberalized carry laws, and second is the huge drop in carjackings in Florida after the rental care manufacturers stopped putting ID on the car letting crooks know it was a rental (meaning the owner was from out of state and hence probably unarmed due to lack of reciprocal carry laws across state lines). Crooks do seem to respond to the threat that victims might be armed by going elsewhere to perform their activities. And finally, it would seem that criminals in general prey upon the weak, like any predator in the wild. If they think you're likely NOT the weak, they'll pick another target.
celtic_crippler
Senior Master
The teen chose his death.
I'm glad the "Robbery Victim" didn't actually become one.
I'm glad the "Robbery Victim" didn't actually become one.
grydth
Senior Master
Sadly, in the US as well as with international terrorists, we long ago reached the point where they will just kill you anyway. Shooting back may well be one's only chance.
The bad ones here learn to play the injustice system by even a young age....parole....probation.... etc.....all too soon they are out hunting again. Many do not even fear the police.... but the thought of a citizen with a 12 gauge and a rottweiler behind the door - now those are deterrence.
IMO, while the idea of 'sending a message' is appealing, I doubt it'll have any effect, because if it did, then there'd be no more crime, because the bad guys would fear the victims fighting back.
I'm also of the belief that their use of a weapon is pure intimidation. They're hoping that by showing the weapon, the victim will comply and wont fight back. However, as we've seen many times, people are tired of being victims and are fighting back.
As I've said many times before in discussions like this, there are way too many documented cases of people complying and still getting shot and/or killed, so while I do see the point that some have, of complying and then if thigns go south, then fight back, I feel that your opportunity to act, may pass, thus screwing yourself further. That being said, I'd rather die fighting/killing.
Could this guy have been shot? Sure. Fortunately for him, he was able to access his weapon, and did what he had to do. For that, I tip my hat to him, for a job well done.
I'm also of the belief that their use of a weapon is pure intimidation. They're hoping that by showing the weapon, the victim will comply and wont fight back. However, as we've seen many times, people are tired of being victims and are fighting back.
As I've said many times before in discussions like this, there are way too many documented cases of people complying and still getting shot and/or killed, so while I do see the point that some have, of complying and then if thigns go south, then fight back, I feel that your opportunity to act, may pass, thus screwing yourself further. That being said, I'd rather die fighting/killing.
Could this guy have been shot? Sure. Fortunately for him, he was able to access his weapon, and did what he had to do. For that, I tip my hat to him, for a job well done.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #8
I'd rather not die.
http://www.news9.com/Global/story.asp?S=11838500
Every situation is different. I don't believe in a philosophy of always fighting back, or of always complying with demands. One must use one's best judgment, but for me the primary goal is to remain alive, not to 'refuse to be a victim'.
Deaf Smith
Master of Arts
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2008
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When asked, “why not give them my money as it isn't worth a life.”
I always reply, "Let the robber decide that."*
Long time ago a gent named Skeeter Skelton, the Sherriff of Deaf Smith County, wrote that he would resist in all occasions except when it would be suicide to resist (like a leveled sawed off shotgun at 7 yards.)
Now Skeeter knew a thing or two as he had been a LEO for well past 20 years, and a combat veteran of WW2 to boot. So he knew a thing or two about fighting.
The man in the story did right. Thankfully he had the skills to defend himself, unlike places where they do their best to make it impossible to resist. Well done.
Deaf
*But in states where there is no ‘stand your ground’ law, that can be modified as needed to stay within the law. And I do intend on staying within the law unless the stupid law is gonna get me killed.
Well, I'd rather not die either, but, given the nature of the punks today, and the high risk of them shooting, stabbing, etc. anyways, and the risk of me getting injured....
Its really no different than flight 93. Those people knew they were shafted but still fought back.
I know we've had discussions about this before, and I respect your opinion, actions, etc., if thats what you choose to do.
For me, of course, I want to remain alive, but I do not feel that I should be a victim either.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #12
Well, I'd rather not die either, but, given the nature of the punks today, and the high risk of them shooting, stabbing, etc. anyways, and the risk of me getting injured....
Its really no different than flight 93. Those people knew they were shafted but still fought back.
I know we've had discussions about this before, and I respect your opinion, actions, etc., if thats what you choose to do.
I understand and I likewise respect you and your opinion too.
But I was thinking about this tonight as I headed out to the dojo. You know those chess computer programs are pretty good now, they can beat the best grandmasters most of the time. But I think that is partially because there are only so many variables in Chess. I mean, there are a lot of them, but still a finite set.
In a human confrontation, there are an infinite or near infinite set of possibilities. Anything could happen, and the situation is in flux, constantly updating and options opening up and closing down, and so on. I can't know what's in my attacker's mind or how he will react to anything I might do, and about the only thing I can think of is to trust my instincts, trust my training, watch and try to see whatever opportunities might exist, and take them if they become clear to me. So I have to reject the notion that there are a set of rules or principles that one should adhere to, like "always fight back" or "always give in." And having made a choice, that doesn't always mean there isn't a valid reason to change your mind and go another direction. The best generals make plans, but they change them quickly if circumstances change; they don't stick to the game plan no matter what.
I will say this; trapped in a car wash with my escape route closed off, approached by two individuals, at least one of whom is clearly armed, unknown if yet more attackers are behind me, I believe I'd have done just as the victim in this case did if I had the opportunity. And like him, I certainly would not waste time waving my gun about once I had retrieved it. I'd shoot them both and be quick about it, and immediately take protective action like jumping in my car and running over them on my way out to make sure I would not be jumped from the rear. Then call the police. I'm pretty sure the guy made a rational decision.
Sorry I didn't get back to this sooner. Been busy. Anyways...you're right..things will change from second to second, and we do need to be able to adapt to those changes. For myself, if I'm going to do something, I'd rather do it as soon as the opportunity presents itself. In other words, I could, a) comply with his demands, so as I'm reaching for my cash, handing it over to him, he's distracted at that moment, that I feel is the best time for me to act. Or b) same as above, but once I hand him what he wants, I do nothing to see what his next move is. IMO, by waiting, I may have lost any chance of surviving. I'd rather wait for the right moment, hopefully when he's momentarily distracted, and then act, overwhelming him, not giving him a chance to think about whats going on. Hopefully at that time, he wont be thinking about the crime that he was committing, but instead what this crazy guy (me) is doing to him.
I dont carry, so that option is eliminated for me. When I do go to the wash, I use the automatic one, but if I did find myself in the bay, with 2 guys approaching me, my first thought would be to hopefully get into my vehicle. Soapy car and all, I'm taking off, and if my vehicle happens to bump into one or both of the badguys...oopps.
