The Xingyi Addict Rides Again - blog post

Xue Sheng

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The Xingyi Addict Rides Again < Link to blog

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Kung Fu Wang

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When the XY system uses 5 elements to explain which XY punch can be used to

- against which XY punch, and
- changed into which XY punch,

I always like to ask, "How about kick?" Which element is front kick? Which element is side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, ...?

Why does the XY system treat punch and kick differently? I have not obtained any satisfied answer so far.
 
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Xue Sheng

Xue Sheng

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When the XY system uses 5 elements to explain which XY punch can be used to

- against which XY punch, and
- changed into which XY punch,

I always like to ask, "How about kick?" Which element is front kick? Which element is side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, ...?

Why does the XY system treat punch and kick differently? I have not obtained any satisfied answer so far.
No offense, but IMO, you are not getting an answer because you are asking a question that does not make any sense
 

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No offense, but IMO, you are not getting an answer because you are asking a question that does not make any sense
Why do you think 5 elements makes sense in arm skill, but don't make sense in leg skill?

- Pi Quan can be used to counter Beng Quan. Inside crescent kick can be used to counter front kick.
- Pi Quan can easily change into Zuan Quan. Hook kick can easily change into roundhouse kick.
- ...

Leg skill

- "knee lift" can be used to counter "inner hook".
- "knee strike" can easily change into "inner hook".
- ...

If we use the 5 elements "counter/change" logic, leg skill has no problem to fit into that model.
 
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I also don't understand why the Xing Yi system does not include

- hook punch.
- overhand.
- back fist.
- hammer fist.
- spiral punch.
- ...

Is it because 5 is the magic number? Anything that's more than 5 cannot be supported by the 5 elements theory?
 
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Xue Sheng

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Why do you think 5 elements makes sense in arm skill, but don't make sense in leg skill?

- Pi Quan can be used to counter Beng Quan. Inside crescent kick can be used to counter front kick.
- Pi Quan can easily change into Zuan Quan. Hook kick can easily change into roundhouse kick.
- ...

Leg skill

- "knee lift" can be used to counter "inner hook".
- "knee strike" can easily change into "inner hook".
- ...

If we use the 5 elements "counter/change" logic, leg skill has no problem to fit into that model.
I also don't understand why the Xing Yi system does not include

- hook punch.
- overhand.
- back fist.
- hammer fist.
- spiral punch.
- ...

Is it because 5 is the magic number? Anything that's more than 5 cannot be supported by the 5 elements theory?
You are looking at it wrong. Watch the Hai Yang video.

Again, no offense intended, but Xingyiquan is not Long Fist, and you are also looking at Xingyi 5 elements at its most basic level. And you seem to be missing many parts of Xingyiquan 5 elements

You are right, there is no crescent kick, hook kick or round house kick, why would there be based on it foot work, application and usage, but then it is not long fist. But there are knee strikes and back fist (4 different punched plus a palm strike) also some shuaijiao. And I have trained 3 different kicks in 5 elements, one was high, I did not agree with it so I no longer train it. A waist height heel kick (I do train), a lower kick to the knee, which is not easy to explain but it is taking the knee out sideways (This one I work on). There is also a 4th that goes to the foot as in more of a stomp.

As for the rest, you would then be training with a different objective, different strategy and a different style.

Back to seeing only the basic 5 element, and most do actually. You see someone doing piquan, zuanquan, bengquan, paoquan and hengquan and think that is how it is done and that is all there is.

According to Hai Yang all of the 5 elements have 5 variations. To be honest I do not know what he is considering "variations" But I have trained variations of each element. All 5 need to be trained with the linear and zig zag foot work. All 5 need to be trained opposite leg/opposite arm, all 5 need to be trained going backward, and in Wudang you will see a shortened, quicker version of all 5 and even training walking the circle. There is also the the Creation order and destructive order. And there are at least two 5 element forms that are 2 person, and a bit more aggressive than a taijiquan 2 person form,

You don't understand why things you think should be in a system are not there....my advice, don't train that system. I don't understand why more systems do not train watching their feet to avoid attack, but that is their system.

My goal is not to change a system to something I like, or I understand. My goal is to understand the system as it was trained, and that is hard to find these days. There are a lot of ways Xingyiquan was trained, that most no longer do. Case in point, finish the basic 5 elements, call themselves a master and move on to 12 animals. When most don't even truly understand the 5 elements.
 

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Agree that XY system trains the following more than any other MA systems:

- straight line footwork.
- zig zag footwork.
- same side punch.
- opposite side punch.
- backward punch.

As far as understanding the 5 elements, I truly don't see any difference between a

- XY Pao Quan (use 3-7 stance),
- long fist upper block and punch (use bow-arrow stance),

The XY Pao Quan is like to lift a curtain and walk under it. The important part is not the upward block but to walk under it. But this principle can be applied to all MA systems as well.

The XY Ben Quan is one of the log fist basic training drill. It uses 4-6 stance in long fist instead of 3-7 stance in XY. As far as which stance is better? 3-7 stance in higher/narrower. 4-6 stance is lower/wider.
 
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Xue Sheng

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Agree that XY system trains the following more than any other MA systems:

- straight line footwork.
- zig zag footwork.
- same side punch.
- opposite side punch.
- backward punch.

As far as understanding the 5 elements, I truly don't see any difference between a

- XY Pao Quan (use 3-7 stance),
- long fist upper block and punch (use bow-arrow stance),

The XY Pao Quan is like to lift a curtain and walk under it. The important part is not the upward block but to walk under it. But this principle can be applied to all MA systems as well.

The XY Ben Quan is one of the log fist basic training drill. It uses 4-6 stance in long fist instead of 3-7 stance in XY. As far as which stance is better? 3-7 stance in higher/narrower. 4-6 stance is lower/wider.
Only so many ways to hurt another person. However Xingyiquan does not come from, nor is it linked to Long Fist. Taijiquan is, Xingyiquan and Baguazhang are not
 

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Only so many ways to hurt another person. However Xingyiquan does not come from, nor is it linked to Long Fist. Taijiquan is, Xingyiquan and Baguazhang are not
I like to see the similarity between styles instead of the difference.

In your opinion, what's the difference between these 2 videos?


 
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Xue Sheng

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Assume if you train both. Do you want to

- integrate both together (emphasize the similarity), or
- separate both forever (emphasize the difference)?
You are asking for the hypothetical and that is not a rabbit hole I'm going to go down

You asked what difference I looked, and I told you what I saw. Very different to me
 

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You are asking for the hypothetical and that is not a rabbit hole I'm going to go down

You asked what difference I looked, and I told you what I saw. Very different to me
I try to explain to you why I like to see the MA similarity than the MA difference.

I have trained XY, Baji, and long fist. I can do Beng Quan in 3 different ways. I can also do it with 33% XY, 33% Baji, and 33% long fist.

The only thing that I can't integrate is long fist and WC. Both systems just have too much difference.
 
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I try to explain to you why I like to see the MA similarity than the MA difference.

I have trained XY, Baji, and long fist. I can do Beng Quan in 3 different ways. I can also do it with 33% XY, 33% Baji, and 33% long fist.

The only thing that I can't integrate is long fist and WC. Both systems just have too much difference.
No problem, if that is what you want to do them go for it. The only different styles I have trained that integrated easily (meaning no major changes) were Xingyiquan and JKD
 
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Just posted this in the blog as well, but wanted to put it here too

Something I want to add about Xingyiquan in general, that many seem to miss, or not know based on their martial arts training.

Xingyiquan is not really a method of self-defense as much as it is a method of attack. In xingyiquan you attack and even the moves, postures forms that could be defensive are still attacking.

There is an old Chinese saying that says "Xingyi never backs up". In reality it does go backwards, but even then it is attacking.

Had a xingyiquan shifu once who said Xingyiquan is the only Chinese martial art he knew that felt preemptive attacks were justified. Now I am not sure that is true, but it is a good way to think about the aggressiveness of Xingyiquan.

Could also have something to do with why the Chinese military trained thier troops in Xingyiquan before and during WW2
 
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