The value of forms

[Gweilo]

IMO, forms are useful for beginners, to help teach set patterns of movement, I prefer drills, as set patterns or routines do not suit everyone, but I think the key is pressure testing on a regular basis. Imo set patterns are a way of teaching parrot fashion, every student fits neatly into place if it suits them or not, which is fine for beginners, but not for the individual, who is creative, and thinks outside the box.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

i am wanting to know peoples opinion on forms and what the value is,

In the "TKD class structure" thread, I have suggested to teach "partner drills" over "form".

solo drill = partner drill without partner.
form = link a set of solo drills together.

partner drills -> solo drills -> forms

The interested question is "Where did your partner drills come from?"

If your partner drill is side kick, spin back fist,

- Did you learn your combo from a form? or
- Did you learn your combo from sparring, you then create your form afterward?

This may get into chicken and egg issue here.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

Its always great to do the forms or kata its part of Ma and it can apply on the street if your lost though if you didn't teach it and when your student test and do there kata they gonna be lost because they didn't learn the kata that's all gona say

 

[falcon]

In the "TKD class structure" thread, I have suggested to teach "partner drills" over "form".

solo drill = partner drill without partner.
form = link a set of solo drills together.

partner drills -> solo drills -> forms

i think i am going to break up the forms i teach into partner drills, so that way i am still teaching the forms but, with some benifit and then they just have to add all the drills together to get the form.

 

[dvcochran]

i am wanting to know peoples opinion on forms and what the value is, i train forms and teach them at my dojang cause it is a part of the MA but i dont like them that much cause the moves dont work if you do them the way you do in the form. In order to do those moves in a sparring round or for self defense reasons you have to change the technique a lot, so whats the purpose of training it wrong inn the form when you could just drill the actual technique more so you can use it when you have to?
I am mostly just trying to understand forms and what there purpose is, another question i have are there schools that dont train them,I do Taekwondo so i am mostly asking for that MA but input from any other style that has forms like karate is welcome to respond.

I have been to many WT/Kukki, ITF, ATA, and independent TKD Dojangs. Never been to a Jhoon Rhee Dojang. They all teach their own style of forms. Poomsae are a fundamental part of any TKD curriculum. @jobo said it well when he said forms and individual techniques should be taught the same and should be connected. One of the things I have enjoyed most about my TKD journey is finding out how to transfer or associate the moves in forms into real world application. Granted there are 'extremes' in the movements of some forms which are hard to see and understand. The same can be said about life and any given SD situation. Forms and one, two, three-steps or self defense drills should be seen as building blocks. Forms can be seen as connective tissue and fluid enhancers. A little cheesy, but true all the same.
I have seen people get so wrapped up in the HOW of doing a form that they forget, or worse never learn, the WHY of a form or even individual drills.
A very cool thing about Korean MA's in general is that they have both Japanese and Chinese influence. They are neither super rigid like say Shotokan or super flowing like say Kung Fu, but have strong ties to each. The best of both worlds. IMHO

 

[Headhunter]

Its always great to do the forms or kata its part of Ma and it can apply on the street if your lost though if you didn't teach it and when your student test and do there kata they gonna be lost because they didn't learn the kata that's all gona say

Not really....real fights you won't have the chance to go into perfect form and as for tests...if he doesn't teach it then obviously he's not going to ask it during tests

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

i think i am going to break up the forms i teach into partner drills,

In the beginning, you may want to break up your forms into drills. If your partner drills are designed in such a way that

- You attack (such as a side kick), your opponent responds (such as a downward block),
- You then borrow your opponents blocking force, spin your body, and finish with a spin back fist,

Your students will understand how to use one move o set up next move. this is a very important part of MA training.

 

[Martial D]

Also there's a number of Mma guys who still practice forms. GSP (he has actually gone out his way to train with forms world champions) lyoto machida does forms daily, Stephen Thompson and probably a bunch of others as well.

Ya sure. Guys that also do TMA sometimes continue to do TMA after they start doing combat sports.

I drive, and I also fish. I'm not convinced that my ability to bait a hook gets me home any faster however.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

with some benifit and then they just have to add all the drills together to get the form.

Later on, you may want to create similar drills yourself. What if your opponent blocks your side kick into the other direction, instead of followed with a spin back fist, you may have to change into a strike to the head (because your body have to spin into the other direction). This drill may or may not exist in your form. If your form doesn't have it, you just have to create it.

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[Martial D]

the first part is user based not everyone enjoys them, but if you do that then there is nothing wrong with that. its just not a reason for everyone to do them

for the second part of it can carry over some to usable techniques you just have to learn how to do it, which brings me to my original thought of why learn a pretty looking version and real life version for self defense if you dont enjoy doing the form. the main thing i have seen forms help me with is transitioning from different power stances, but even then i have had to change the stances to end up useing them.

There's nothing you can do in the air by yourself that doesn't get better results done live on pads or a partner. Especially when your muscle memory is telling you that move should flow off of another specific move and into a specific move.

Sure, combos are a thing but jab jab cross or rear lowkick to forward hook (etc) is a little different than a 30 part choreography.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Confucius said, "If you believe in book, it's better not to have the book at all."

If you allow the form to define the boundary of your MA knowledge, it's better not to have the form at all.

A: Why didn't your style train hook punch and roundhouse kick?
B: My style believes the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line.

 

[JowGaWolf]

i dont like them that much cause the moves dont work if you do them the way you do in the form. In order to do those moves in a sparring round or for self defense reasons you have to change the technique a lot

My opinion on this is that you shouldn't have to change it alot in order for the technique to work. I don't know what forms you train so I can't speak to that specifically. But based on what I train, people usually train the forms incorrectly for application. When most people train forms , the focus bring used is that of a performance. When I train the exact same forms I train for function. As a result my forms always look a little rough and not as clean. I'm not winning any medals for my form presentation. The other reason forms may seem like they are failing is that the techniques are being applied to the wrong attack or defense. If you feel like you are trying to force it, then it usually means it's being applied incorrectly or to the wrong attack or defense.

I would be interested in seeing which technique from the form, makes you think that you have to change it. If you can make a video then some of us may be able to provide some insight. Sometimes the same technique or a similar technique is found in another system and it might give you some clarity on how to best apply the technique.

 

[falcon]

My opinion on this is that you shouldn't have to change it alot in order for the technique to work. I don't know what forms you train so I can't speak to that specifically. But based on what I train, people usually train the forms incorrectly for application. When most people train forms , the focus bring used is that of a performance. When I train the exact same forms I train for function. As a result my forms always look a little rough and not as clean. I'm not winning any medals for my form presentation. The other reason forms may seem like they are failing is that the techniques are being applied to the wrong attack or defense. If you feel like you are trying to force it, then it usually means it's being applied incorrectly or to the wrong attack or defense.

I would be interested in seeing which technique from the form, makes you think that you have to change it. If you can make a video then some of us may be able to provide some insight. Sometimes the same technique or a similar technique is found in another system and it might give you some clarity on how to best apply the technique.

i might end up doing that video you talked about but i gotta find the time for that, also even just the basics of the stances have to be changed to apply, for example the front stance you have both feet facing forwards and your shoulders square to your target, but if you where to use that stance to throw a punch you have to rotate past your target to drive your shoulder forward and pivot your back leg so its no longer facing forward. i feel that is a pretty big difference, which i believe would cause problems in a self defense situation.

 

[falcon]

I would be interested in seeing which technique from the form, makes you think that you have to change it.

there is also some moves i am trying to understand that i dont know what you would be doing, i have seem some suggestions of what some moves do but they are usely pretty drastic.

 

[dvcochran]

Not really....real fights you won't have the chance to go into perfect form and as for tests...if he doesn't teach it then obviously he's not going to ask it during tests

True enough. You are not going to "break down" into a deep front stance on the street. The motion and effectiveness of the technique is where the muscle memory comes into play. The stance work/foot work is for strength and structure. Where most people miss the boat is in the lack of repetition.
We are curious creatures. It takes hundreds or thousands of hours for most people to really 'get it'. What I have seen is that the inclination lessens over time. Once someone gets a few techniques, the basics, the rest of what they learn comes much easier.

 

[Flying Crane]

Confucius said, "If you believe in book, it's better not to have the book at all."

If you allow the form to define the boundary of your MA knowledge, it's better not to have the form at all.

A: Why didn't your style train hook punch and roundhouse kick?
B: My style believes the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line.

But why would anyone allow the form to define the boundary of one’s martial knowledge? I’ve trained several systems that use forms, and in none of them has this been the attitude.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

i understand that stuff but, i also know that sometimes the application can be a very different movement so wouldn't it be better to train the real technique in a chain of movements instead of the form version of the technique.

That's what a form (the way a lot of MA's teach it) is supposed to be. If it's not for you, then either you're doing the form wrong, you don't understand it's application, or it's a crap form.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

i think i am going to break up the forms i teach into partner drills, so that way i am still teaching the forms but, with some benifit and then they just have to add all the drills together to get the form.

That sounds like a good idea. Take a few of the basic forms to start with, and pick them apart, make drills out of them. Try to use the techniques in sparring sessions. If they don't work, try to figure out what you're doing wrong/what you need to make it work. Once you figure that out, go back to the form and do the form with it's effective use in mind. It'll help you a lot when teaching them.

Keep in mind: this probably won't win you (or your students if it changes how you teach them) a lot of tournaments in the forms divisions. From what I've seen they don't always care about effective as much as flashy and "clean".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

i think i am going to break up the forms i teach into partner drills,

By using your approach, this 5 kicks combo will never be created (it doesn't exist in any form).

IMO, to copy during the beginner level and to create during the advance level are both important. The question is when will you change your copy mode into your creation mode.

 

[Danny T]

When it comes to understanding forms and the movements vs strict adherence form
here are a quotes from some of the masters:
Masutatsu Oyama – “unfortunately, many experienced karateka, having learnt many kata, mistakenly believe they have mastered them, when in truth they are merely dancing. To ensure kata are what they should be, you must completely understand the significance of the movements.”

Gichin Funakoshi – “Once a kata has been learned, it’s moves must be practiced repeatedly until it can be applied in an emergency. Knowledge of just the sequence of kata in karate is useless.”

Gichin Funakoshi – “To practice kata is not to memorize an order. Find the katas that work for you, understand them, digest them.”

Gichin Funakoshi – “Hitting, thrusting, and kicking are not the only methods in kata. Throwing techniques and pressure against joints, grabbing, & seizing are included … all these techniques should be studied referring to basic kata.”

Gichin Funakoshi – “A student well versed in even one technique will naturally see corresponding points in other techniques. A upper level punch, a lower punch, a front punch and a reverse punch are all essentially the same.”

Gichin Funakoshi – “…about three years were required to learn a single kata, and usually even an expert of considerable skill would only know three, or at most five, kata.”

Gichin Funakoshi – “The «way», who will pass it on straight and well? …The karate students practice today is not the same karate that was practiced even as recently as ten years ago [this book was written in 1956], and it is a long way indeed from the karate I learned in Okinawa.”

Hironori Otsuka – “It is obvious that kata must be trained and practiced sufficiently, but one must not be ‘stuck’ in them. One must take from the kata to produce actions with no limits or else it becomes useless.”

Gogen Yamaguchi – “It is not the number of kata you know, but the Substance of the kata you have acquired.