The support leg in KMA kicking

[shesulsa]

In HRD we rotate the support leg during the chamber thusly:

Front kicks, leg rotates so that heel moves approx. 90 degrees

Chop kicks (roundhouse), leg rotates so that heel moves approx. 135 degrees

Side kicks, leg rotates so that heel moves approx 180 degrees

All during the chambering action.


How does this compare to other KMAs?

 

[Bob D.]

Hello Ms. Ketchmark, How is everything?
On the (rear leg) front kick the foot rotates after coil, as the knee and hip pass center. It starts as you coil, but the pivot really happens after. It is your momentum pulling that causes pivot(actually the foot could pivot well passed 90 degrees). To do so before that would rob you of your power. Think about it, if you turn your foot out while coiling, you have about 50% less room to extend forward making the kick a leg extention insead of a thrust.
The power comes from the hip thrust which causes the pivot.
Since the coil and extension should be one continuos motion, it does seem like what your saying. Ditto for roundhouse, it should coil the same. Side kick sets up with a different hip position so the supporting foot does rotate about 40 degrees on coil for front leg kick and yes 180 for rear leg kick.
Regards, Bob

 

[Gemini]

Though the pivot does begin as you're bringing you knee up to chamber (which includes front, side, RH, hook and axe kicks) the pivot completes during the actual kick itself to add thrust. I would agree if you complete your pivot before the kick, you're bleeding off much of your power.

 

[shesulsa]

Hello Ms. Ketchmark, How is everything?
On the (rear leg) front kick the foot rotates after coil, as the knee and hip pass center. It starts as you coil, but the pivot really happens after. It is your momentum pulling that causes pivot(actually the foot could pivot well passed 90 degrees). To do so before that would rob you of your power. Think about it, if you turn your foot out while coiling, you have about 50% less room to extend forward making the kick a leg extention insead of a thrust.
The power comes from the hip thrust which causes the pivot.
Since the coil and extension should be one continuos motion, it does seem like what your saying. Ditto for roundhouse, it should coil the same. Side kick sets up with a different hip position so the supporting foot does rotate about 40 degrees on coil for front leg kick and yes 180 for rear leg kick.
Regards, Bob

Farang, Sa Bum Nim, all is well, thank you Sir.

I'm thinking about what you've typed and will have to duplicate what I think you're typing. Very interesting! Thank you. :asian:

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Though the pivot does begin as you're bringing you knee up to chamber (which includes front, side, RH, hook and axe kicks) the pivot completes during the actual kick itself to add thrust. I would agree if you complete your pivot before the kick, you're bleeding off much of your power.

Yes, that was how I was taught - in both Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do. The only exception was the side step sidekick where the supporting leg was brought in at a pivot.

Hello user Bob D. Great to hear from you. Obviously you know your material, so I look forward to reading your contributions in the future!

 

[Miles]

The pivoting of the support leg is one of the most important aspects of kicking. Period.

If you pivot too soon, as has been mentioned, you lose power. If you pivot too late, you don't deliver enough power. If you don't pivot, you could hurt your knee or hips.

BTW, the dvd I reviewed recently, "The Revolution of Kicking" has a really neat description/demonstration of the support leg pivot-it is sort of a 3D snapshot and rotation of a person kicking with commentary.

Good comments!

Miles

 

[Bob D.]

I guess we all agree on whats happening with foot rotation in KMAs'. Keep in mind that a Thai roundhouse is often done with the front foot already pointed outward and it is a very powerful and fast kick. They are depending on counter timing to negate telegraphing (it's gennerally not a mystery what kick is coming, but hard to avoid because of "set up" or quickness to counter your move).
A whole discussion could be had on the necessary components of a kick for it to have power (push from ground, coil, hip thrust/extention, foot pivot, leg lock, etc.).

 

[Kuk Sa Nim]

Greeting all,

Well, I'm not sure if I want to get into this, because it's kind of like splitting hairs on a simple and personal topic. I'll contribute these couple of comments from a fighting aspect to add a little different perspective.

The topic was "the supporting leg in kicking". There was no mention of power or range (as in distance) of the kicks. If what we are referring to is POWER in the kicks, then sure, there needs to be lots of hip involvement to maximize the power (but not necessarily, depending on the objective). The timing of when the supporting leg is rotated to coincide with the completion of the kick is determined by the distance we are trying to cover. Sure it is "kicking range", but that can be very far away (Long Range), relatively close (Middle Range) and very close (Close Range). Just think of the classical Tai Chi or Wing Chun side kick, vs. a Shotokan type of side kick, vs a TKD side kick. The hip tends to extend more and more when comparing these side kicks. This is based more on range than power, and yes, KMA will use all these types of kicks in self defense.

The supporting leg has various functions. Of course with the correct hip commitment, you distinguish the amount of reach and power. You also need it for proper balance, height and accuracy (which is an often under-discussed, yet key component of ALL kicks) among other purposes.

There are three basic types of kicks. They are 1-Snapping, 2-Thrusting, and 3- Whipping kicks. Each requires specific supporting foot position and hip commitment.

Take your basic front, side or chop (round) kick. If your opponent is very close and up in your face you can still execute any one of these kicks to certain targets of your choice. Maybe his knee with the side or chop kick, and maybe the groin with the front kick. This will need to be a snapping kick, with virtually no hip commitment or rotation on the supporting leg. This because you do not have the range needed for any other, but the kick can and should still be very effective.

If the opponent is a couple steps further away from you, the snapping – Short Range kick will not work or reach. Neither will a full hip committed – Long Range kick, as that would only push your opponent. So you can only rotate the hips so much, Ie: Middle Range kick, to accomplish any of the kicks previously described. Again you will have a successful kick.

If the opponent is yet a few more steps away or farther, you will need the full extension of the hips in order to reach him. Long Range Kicking.

So, my point is what are you trying to accomplish with the kick (and the chamber needed)? How close is your opponent? How fluid is the situation? That’s how fluid you need to be and adapt the correct hip commitment for the elusive and uncooperative target.

OK, I end this now. So, this is a little more food for thought. Hope I didn’t make this more complicated than it is, because it’s not. It is elementary. FWIW, I demonstrate these concepts on the Power Kicking Video Tape that I released under Panther Prod. awhile ago.

With brotherhood,
Grand Master De Alba

 

[Bob D.]

Good point KSN De Alba. I assumed we were talking about mid or outside range above knee, because most don't coil for inside or low (but can).
Regards,