The Science Behind the Scenes

jezr74

Master of Arts
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2010
Messages
1,643
Reaction score
217
Location
Australia
I was shown some techniques the other night with how to make yourself heavy and observed some where pressure applied to say the arm prevented the person from moving or rising.

While I'm very skeptical as to their explanation (or lack there of), there is some body mechanics behind it that I'm curious about. Does anyone know the terms I can search for to explain what the body is doing or have links that go over it. While I didn't say anything in the lesson out of respect, I'm not prepared to think it's mystical no matter how long you have been practicing for, and while I won't be convinced or challenge them in the dojang, I'm very curious and I love the science behind these types of things. It was a great lesson, I really enjoy the diversity of what I'm being taught. I'm also learning a lot about Aikido, as my Hapkido instructor, is also in to that as well and mentions concepts from Aikido that are interesting. (Which sounds nothing like the Yoshinkan Aikido I tried while traveling, albeit only for 6 months)
 

oftheherd1

Senior Master
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
4,685
Reaction score
817
Did you ask your teacher how you can do it, or have you tried googling 'lower center of gravity in martial arts?'
 
OP
jezr74

jezr74

Master of Arts
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2010
Messages
1,643
Reaction score
217
Location
Australia
Hopefully I will next session, I think I only got to see some of this due to the class being small and higher ranks for that night.

My instructor is very approachable and I have no doubt would love to talk about it. But some of the students are more immersed in the tradition and/or spiritual side of things and I didn't want to disrupt that by asking about the behind the scenes. Especially when they said there is no explanation. (My teacher didn't say that I should clear up) and seemed a bit miffed (students) I would question it. Or they were just pulling my leg.

Thanks for the wording, for the life of me couldn't think of it. What would you call the more advanced items, or is it more under the same category?

I'm interested in the ki thing as well, but think I need to develop more in Hapkido to understand it IMO.

I think I muddied the waters by mentioning how some did not appear to like me questioning it, I sometimes blurt out what I'm thinking when I write, each to their own, my point in being cautious was I think ma can be very personal for an individual and didn't want to mess with it.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
 

Brian King

Master of Arts
Supporting Member
MT Mentor
Joined
Mar 17, 2003
Messages
1,622
Reaction score
504
Location
Bellevue, Washington USA
If your instructor is very approachable as you said above, I would advise you to talk to him. Traditionally, before class or after class is usually preferred rather than during class so as not to be disruptive to the class. Rather than approaching as a skeptic if you feel that might be seen as negative and disruptive, or argumentative, approach with honest enthusiasm and an open mind. Most instructors love the enthusiastic students with beginner minds. Be willing to accept that even with more detailed explanation and hands on practice you still might not 'get it'. LOL if everything was easy.... It is ok to put things that you do not yet understand away for a bit. Put it in your back pocket for later. Someday, some other lesson will come along and all of a sudden other things click and then you can pull it out of your back pocket with new eyes and understanding, and it will seem very basic. Learn to be greedy with your own training. Ask questions. Volunteer to feel the technique all the time. Be early and be eager. (Hint- if you show up early and ask a question or two you might influence the direction of the upcoming class and get further work on whatever issue)

If nothing else, by asking the instructor you will begin to build up the vocabulary needed to research further.

I am not a traditionalist so follow your own heart and seek your instructors input on following. A student, a life long learner should question everything. Things that a person takes as truth might not be the same truth to that same person the following year. Take every assumption and prove it, then a few months or years later, prove it again. Be greedy in your own training. IT is OK to take things apart, reverse engineer things, try out things. Exploration is the journey. During class might not be appropriate to question things or to do so belligerently, but, meet the instructor for lunch as ask away. Volunteer to drive the instructor to a seminar or tournament. Seek conversation with instructors. You do not need to steal information as most instructors will give it away but only to those that are seeking it. Do not get discouraged if the instructor says that you are not yet ready. If the instructor says that agree with them then ask if you can bring it back up in a few months and is there perhaps some reference or technique that you can work on in the meantime that might lead to further understanding. Knowledge is like an apple. Sometimes we want the whole thing in one bite rather than taking little bites and enjoying each mouthful.

Regarding you question above, I am not sure what exactly you are referring to when you said make yourself heavy. It could be several things off the top of my head and I do not wish to confuse the conversation. You can make yourself heavy with relaxation (lift a drunk off the floor). You can make yourself heavy spiritually, you can make yourself heavy psychologically as further examples.

Basics- Everything is basic. Some things just combined basics which makes it seem more advanced. Some recipes have to be followed in order to turn out successfully.


Hope that this might help a bit. Good luck with your journey and thanks for the thread. Let us know what happens.

Regards
Brian King
 
OP
jezr74

jezr74

Master of Arts
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2010
Messages
1,643
Reaction score
217
Location
Australia
I'm definitely not going in closed minded, if anything it woke up a part of me that became really curious. I recognize I need to mature as a student more before I can really go into that side of the art. But what I can't help myself doing is trying to learn more about the energy side of things in a theoretical\study kind of manner.

It feels like something you need to develop over time, while I'm patient at the dojang, and will wait until I'm ready physically and mentally. I haven't been able to find much real substance to say ki on the web and suspect you need to be really involved with it to get the level of understanding needed.

To be honest, the youtube clips for example really put me off, leading me to think I'm not going to find the answers I'm after there. My first encounter with this and the chit chat with the students lead me to believe that they are happy to just go with it and not look too much into it, and that's what I didn't want to disrupt.

Just happy to get any snippet of information from the experience on this forum to keep me going. The seminars are a good point, will have to seek some out.
 
Last edited:

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
Staff member
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
12,985
Reaction score
10,513
Location
Maui
Yes, there is the science behind the scenes - and then there is the yin side, the art.
Movement, while scientific in it's mechanics, isn't easily applied in confrontation without that certain feel. And that feel has to be the familiar. Might take some time.

Or....it could all be bull****.
 
OP
jezr74

jezr74

Master of Arts
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2010
Messages
1,643
Reaction score
217
Location
Australia
Yes, there is the science behind the scenes - and then there is the yin side, the art.
Movement, while scientific in it's mechanics, isn't easily applied in confrontation without that certain feel. And that feel has to be the familiar. Might take some time.

Or....it could all be bull****.

I'm keen to learn more about that as I progress, I think it caught me by surprise as I wasn't expecting it.
 

K-man

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
6,193
Reaction score
1,223
Location
Australia
I'm definitely not going in closed minded, if anything it woke up a part of me that became really curious. I recognize I need to mature as a student more before I can really go into that side of the art. But what I can't help myself doing is trying to learn more about the energy side of things in a theoretical\study kind of manner.

It feels like something you need to develop over time, while I'm patient at the dojang, and will wait until I'm ready physically and mentally. I haven't been able to find much real substance to say ki on the web and suspect you need to be really involved with it to get the level of understanding needed.

To be honest, the youtube clips for example really put me off, leading me to think I'm not going to find the answers I'm after there. My first encounter with this and the chit chat with the students lead me to believe that they are happy to just go with it and not look too much into it, and that's what I didn't want to disrupt.

Just happy to get any snippet of information from the experience on this forum to keep me going. The seminars are a good point, will have to seek some out.
Forget the YouTube clips. I haven't seen one yet that is not highly suspect.

I think there is a seminar on 14th of June that you might be interested in. I'm thinking your instructor might even be taking one of the sessions. ;)

:asian:
 

WaterGal

Master of Arts
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Messages
1,795
Reaction score
627
I think I know that kind of ki exercises you're talking about, where you make yourself stronger or harder to move by breathing and focusing your body in certain ways. I don't believe in mystical energies, but as far as I've done those exercises there is something going.

I don't know what the scientific explanation is, but the human body is capable of exercising surprising amounts of power at times, like the famous cases of people lifting a car to rescue their trapped kid. This temporary extraordinary strength is thought to be caused by the body suddenly releasing a lot of adrenaline.

Your body controls the release of adrenaline, and other things that happen in the "fight or flight" response (heart rate, increased blood flow to your muscles, etc) unconciously via the sympathetic nervous system. I think it's possible that ki exercises and training work by teaching you to activate or control your sympathetic nervous system in some way, so you can release a bit of adrenaline or whatever on command.

That might be totally wrong, though, I'm no doctor.
 

oftheherd1

Senior Master
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
4,685
Reaction score
817
Does you teacher teach breathing exercises? My GM did. At the beginning, I did not see much value to it. Over time, I found myself better able to breath at all times, and that I had ki I didn't realize I had.
 
OP
jezr74

jezr74

Master of Arts
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2010
Messages
1,643
Reaction score
217
Location
Australia
I've only been practicing a few months, so very beginner.

No direct breathing training yet, but have been told the importance to make sure its under control. We touched on some of the center of gravity last night (is this tanjon (sp?)). And with a little more probing, I think there is a healthy mystery there. No smoke and mirrors, just some people are not as interested as I am in going beyond the basic mechanics of whats happening.

With the COG elements, is this the same concept as when you lead an attacker. With some of the techniques my balance is upset by my opponent with barely any force, it feels like my body forgets to resist and by the time I work out whats going on, I've lost control and being lead around? Is this still considered manipulating my center line?
 

K-man

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
6,193
Reaction score
1,223
Location
Australia
I've only been practicing a few months, so very beginner.

No direct breathing training yet, but have been told the importance to make sure its under control. We touched on some of the center of gravity last night (is this tanjon (sp?)). And with a little more probing, I think there is a healthy mystery there. No smoke and mirrors, just some people are not as interested as I am in going beyond the basic mechanics of whats happening.

With the COG elements, is this the same concept as when you lead an attacker. With some of the techniques my balance is upset by my opponent with barely any force, it feels like my body forgets to resist and by the time I work out whats going on, I've lost control and being lead around? Is this still considered manipulating my center line?
It is all about maintaining your centre and moving your partner's centre. It is nothing to do with breathing yet it is very much to do with breathing. In other words you could spend the next five years practising some mystical breathing exercise and be no further advanced. But breathing out and never holding your breath as you perform your technique enables you to perform the technique without tension. The moment you allow any tension in your arm or body your technique will fail, unless your partner is much weaker than you.
:asian:
 

K-man

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Dec 17, 2008
Messages
6,193
Reaction score
1,223
Location
Australia
This is an interesting read

Philosophy, Psychology, Physics and Practice of Ki
Philosophy, Psychology, Physics and Practice of Ki
I missed this link. Interesting reading, thank you. One of the guys mentioned is Koichi Tohei. Look up some of his material to get a better understanding. He was perhaps the greatest master of Aikido, especially when it has to do with Ki.
:asian:
 

oftheherd1

Senior Master
Joined
May 12, 2011
Messages
4,685
Reaction score
817
I've only been practicing a few months, so very beginner.

No direct breathing training yet, but have been told the importance to make sure its under control. We touched on some of the center of gravity last night (is this tanjon (sp?)). And with a little more probing, I think there is a healthy mystery there. No smoke and mirrors, just some people are not as interested as I am in going beyond the basic mechanics of whats happening.

With the COG elements, is this the same concept as when you lead an attacker. With some of the techniques my balance is upset by my opponent with barely any force, it feels like my body forgets to resist and by the time I work out whats going on, I've lost control and being lead around? Is this still considered manipulating my center line?

Some arts consider the Tanjon to be the center of ki. We trained four breathing exercises, concentrating on our TanJon when we did so. We breathed in and out, moving our arms and bending our legs, with a kiai starting each movement, exhaling and inhaling with the movements. Breathing through the mouth is OK, through the nose is better, but more difficult. Your teacher may do it differently, and I couldn't say one is better than another. When/if he shows you, do it as he says Don't expect overnight miracles.

It takes time, and is more likely to have you suddenly realize at some point in time, you have achieved better breathing and ki at some point in time, than noticing some constant gradual improvement. You may notice several times when breathing changes what you do. Oth, it may be different for you. It may never work, or quicker or slower, or less effectively. It will mostly be up to you and some to your teacher.
 

MattofSilat

Orange Belt
Joined
Jun 15, 2014
Messages
92
Reaction score
9
Location
Guernsey, Channel Islands
I think I know that kind of ki exercises you're talking about, where you make yourself stronger or harder to move by breathing and focusing your body in certain ways. I don't believe in mystical energies, but as far as I've done those exercises there is something going.

I don't know what the scientific explanation is, but the human body is capable of exercising surprising amounts of power at times, like the famous cases of people lifting a car to rescue their trapped kid. This temporary extraordinary strength is thought to be caused by the body suddenly releasing a lot of adrenaline.

Your body controls the release of adrenaline, and other things that happen in the "fight or flight" response (heart rate, increased blood flow to your muscles, etc) unconciously via the sympathetic nervous system. I think it's possible that ki exercises and training work by teaching you to activate or control your sympathetic nervous system in some way, so you can release a bit of adrenaline or whatever on command.

That might be totally wrong, though, I'm no doctor.

In response to your explanation about adrenadline, that is partly true. However, in a real life-threatening situation, it's like the brain takes off that seatbelt. You release the full capacity of your muscle, becoming incredibly strognger, but your muscle cannot work at this rate for more than a few seconds/impacts before being torn beyond repair.

That's why we can't just do it at will.
 

Latest Discussions

Top