The raise and fall of TKD

[Kacey]

Is that really a true statement though? ITF TKD has its silly stuff too like sine wave movement, and the school I visited (not ITF but clearly with an ITF heritage) did lots of sport sparring with no boon hae practice that I could discern.

It's so hard to generalize... In the end it's all about the individual instructor and what they want to teach. You're a lucky one if your instructor actually chooses to teach meaningful self-defense.

Not to start another topic - but if you've never done sine wave properly, you don't know what you're talking about when you say "silly stuff too like sine wave movement" - sine wave (moving up and down) is a natural movement (when taught properly) and is clearly visible in other fighting styles, most notably in boxing, as is the other side of sine wave, spring style (using the hips to generate power). Has it been taught incorrectly in a lot of places? Sure - but so have lots of other, equally valid techniques.

It is, indeed, hard to generalize. I started in the ITF, and part of my I Dan test included a 2 minute demonstration of hol-sin-sul techniques against a moving opponent - not kicking and punching, but releases, throws, and controls. It was a preset routine, yet it was something I had to create myself based on my own understanding of the principles involved.

The association I belong to now requires the teaching of hol-sin-sul at all levels, beginning with falling and rolling, along with some simple releases, at white belt. Most of what we teach came from Hapkido, and complements the kicking and punching aspect of what most people think of as TKD quite well - the principles are the same. It all depends on what the seniors in the organization want, how they teach it, and how the instructors integrate it into their regular instruction.

 

[IcemanSK]

There are a lot of schools (like my grandmaster) that choose to say that they align themselves with the Kukkiwon, rather than the WTF. To these folks, the KKW represents the "old school" SD aspects of TKD & the WTF is associated with the sport.

 

[IcemanSK]

Not to start another topic - but if you've never done sine wave properly, you don't know what you're talking about when you say "silly stuff too like sine wave movement" - sine wave (moving up and down) is a natural movement (when taught properly) and is clearly visible in other fighting styles, most notably in boxing, as is the other side of sine wave, spring style (using the hips to generate power). Has it been taught incorrectly in a lot of places? Sure - but so have lots of other, equally valid techniques.

Kacey, I agree this is another topic. But having both boxed & done sine wave in techniques in an ITF-style school, there is little similarity between the two. If you're only talking about hip rotation, I'd agree. But if so, then you could marry the sine wave to pitching a baseball. The sine wave has the up & down "natural movement", boxing does not employ that movement. I appreciate the point you are trying to make, but it does not hold up using the boxing comparison.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I also did not learn the sporting side of TKD and had the opportunity of training with many Korean Instructor's that taught old style Korean TKD to the military and a few American Instructor's that also learned the old way! (though I did get to experience some sporting style oh so long ago

)

This thread is a great one though and we should all thank Terry for starting it. There are differances in TKD and truthfully some of these differances make the art stronger on the whole. Excellent posts by everyone involved especially Tellner, Newguy, Terry, and on.

Bottom line if you enjoy TKD then train and train hard and experience the great style that it is. (irregardless if you are WTF, ITF or independent)

 

[dancingalone]

Not to start another topic - but if you've never done sine wave properly, you don't know what you're talking about when you say "silly stuff too like sine wave movement" - sine wave (moving up and down) is a natural movement (when taught properly) and is clearly visible in other fighting styles, most notably in boxing,

Kacey, I'm open-minded. If the technique works, it works. From the various clips I've seen on the net, I concluded sine wave doesn't work. How can it? The people I've seen lose much of their kinetic energy by starting and stopping their movement as they raise and lower themselves through their forms. I've dabbled in Chinese martial arts (chaquan and changquan) and no "spring leg" movement I've been exposed to has such noticeable pausing and broken chaining.

If your version of the sinewave is different, I'd love to see a clip. Do you have one? The type of sinewave I am referring to was on Master Mac's site at one point. I stand by my statement, but I'd be happy to learn something new if it's out there to be explored.

 

[Kacey]

Kacey, I agree this is another topic. But having both boxed & done sine wave in techniques in an ITF-style school, there is little similarity between the two. If you're only talking about hip rotation, I'd agree. But if so, then you could marry the sine wave to pitching a baseball. The sine wave has the up & down "natural movement", boxing does not employ that movement. I appreciate the point you are trying to make, but it does not hold up using the boxing comparison.

Rather than take this thread farther off topic, I have started another thread.

To get back to the original topic - anything must evolve or it will stagnate. This is as true in the martial arts as in anything else. Like evolution in nature, some changes will spread widely, even though they are not optimal for improvement; other changes, more optimal, will spread slowly, or even die out because they do not occur in the right place or time.

The changes can be good or bad - the split between the ITF and WTF discussed within this thread and elsewhere has been both, I think. But over time, the good changes will win out over the bad ones, as people learn more about what they are doing and want to do it correctly. Look at the changes that occur in high level competition, and how forms are judged. One year, faster performance might win; another year, power might be the key factor. Over time, people will find what works best, for themselves, for their students, for self-defense. I think we are seeing that now, or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[Brad Dunne]

All very good reply's and a wealth of information being offered. I will offer the following for your interest.

When I visit my friends dojang (he teaches the WTF style and does the tournament venues), he usually asks me to do some instructing to his older/adult students. I try not to expand to far away from what he is showing these folks, but on one occasion, I was asked by a husband and wife who were training together "how would this particular kick work if used in the street"? The kick by the way was a round house and my answer was to change your attack target. Of course they both looked at me with the deer in the head lights look and said "don't understand what you mean". So I asked the husband, do you wear your dobok in the street? and of course the reply was No!. So I further asked, do you think that you could do that round house to an attackers head/chest wearing a pair of snug fitting jeans? and his answer was, "I'm not sure if I could get my leg up that high, but I would surely try". So then I further suggested that instead of attempting to kick that high, why not do the same kick but instead of the head/chest being the target, lower your sights and kick the knee. The woman blurted out, "I could never do that, that would seriously hurt somebody" and the husband went right along with that sentiment. I then proceeded to ask, "if you don't want to hurt anyone, then why did you ask about using the kick in the street"? I assumed you were looking for SD applications. "Well we are", was their response, but within the context of what we've been taught, we really don't want to start any additional training. So then I asked them, so it would be perfectly acceptable for you to kick this person in the head, which unto itself could do more damage than being struck in the knee, with the possibility of even causing death (head blows can and have caused death, it's rare but it has happened) and again the deer in the head lights look. Within about a minute, the husband had that "awaking moment" and smiled and just shook his head. The wife on the other hand was still in far far away land.

So to you the reader, what can you determine from this true story?

 

[Kacey]

So to you the reader, what can you determine from this true story?

That these students are memorizing techniques without any understanding - or they could modify them. The purpose of the techniques - other than looking pretty for competition - has been completely lost.

 

[Brad Dunne]

That these students are memorizing techniques without any understanding - or they could modify them. The purpose of the techniques - other than looking pretty for competition - has been completely lost.

True unto itself, but that's only part of the problem.

 

[Kacey]

The didn't have the mindset of self-defense - the wife's comment "I could never do that, that would seriously hurt somebody" shows that.

I train for a lot of reasons - and self-defense is one of them. Practicing a MA regularly is a good way to stay in shape, which aids in self-defense - but without the mindset that you are learning something that could deliberately injure another person in a time of need, you might as well stick with Tae Bo - or straight aerobics - instead of Taekwon-Do.

This is a fault of the instructor's, not the students - but it is a key factor in peoples' belief that TKD is not a self-defensive art. The thing is, not all TKD instructors/classes/schools/organizations are like that, any more than all classes in any other MA are alike.

 

[DArnold]

Iceman I was over in Korea training in the seventies and what we trained was not this sport stuff. Remember my father tought while he was serving the Marine corp. Although you are right about Wade, there are others on this board that was in Korea training in those H2H combat style of TKD. I know I was never in the military officially but growing up on military basis all over the world and training in some of these places puts me in the same boat.

TKD & the way is it taught (& to whom it is taught) has changed. It is now a "family sport" that teaches discipline, & respect as it's reason it is taught to kids. Heck, "take TKD & get better grades" is often the selling point of more than a few schools.

This statement right here above kinda sums it up for me a Family sport, while my sons and wife plays the game at a high level there are still some of us that would like to think that a few can still see what TKD was meant to be a H2H combat ready art for SD. I have nothing but strong feling for my TKD and I make sure that every student knows from the get go that TKD is more than a sport and I teach both aspect of TKD.

I will sum this up by saying this, if you have ever really trained in the true art H2H side of TKD your heart can only weep a little for those that have never ever really felt this type of raw power in the Korean way of teaching and I'm sure Wade would agree.


Iceman not knocking anything just would like people to really know what they have missed from an explosive art such as TKD.

Terry,
This sounds like an old-timers lament.

Just as those who have been in war have a unique understanding.
They do not wish this understanding on others.

A couple truths:

If the art were not so popular and growing then there would not be the problems you lament over. This is neither bad nor good, it can not be controlled, it is just an inevitable affect of growth.

Every senior reminisces about how things were. Even the masters reminisce about how god-like their instructors were. This has not changed and never will. I would put it to you that thing that has changed is you! Just as you will never hear white belts make the comments you have made.

The masters learned that the scope of their arts are not just about killing, or as you have focused on H2H, that is why they changed the names of their arts from jitsu to Do.

As a martial artist (not a black belt) it is incumbent on us, to practice and learn what you are lamenting about. However, it is not our job to project where we are at our journey on society, the art, our students...
as you will surely drive them away.

In the DO, students come to you for hundreds of different reasons, of which H2H may be a small part. As a sahbum your job is to help them or not. It takes time and training to bring them to your level of understanding and it is not for many, only a few.

If you produce one student that can carry on what you have learned and your love of the art then you are a successful instructor my friend!

Send me an email with information about how we can hook up.
I would like to see your son compete.
Thanks!

 

[Brad Dunne]

"In the DO, students come to you for hundreds of different reasons, of which H2H may be a small part."

This is the result of the transformation of the original intent of the discipline. There are some disciplines out there, that even though the "Do" is in the name, Hapkido comes to mind, they focus on H2H/SD as their mainstay. Granted, their student numbers may be small, but they have in my estimation, kept to the original intent of the discipline.

"If you produce one student that can carry on what you have learned and your love of the art then you are a successful instructor my friend!"

As nice as you intend this statement to be, IMO it's flawed. Lets say that everything about that statement rings true, what happens if for any number of reasons, that student dosen't or can't carry on, then what happens to the knowledge and or the discipline in general?

"As a martial artist (not a black belt) it is incumbent on us, to practice and learn what you are lamenting about"

If it's not taught, then how can anyone learn or practice, what's being lamented about?

"The masters learned that the scope of their arts are not just about killing, or as you have focused on H2H, that is why they changed the names of their arts from jitsu to Do."

The "Do" was part of the name TKD, before all this transition came about. The Masters learned that sport = money here in the states and inturn, many became business men instead of real teachers.

 

[IcemanSK]

Terry,
This sounds like an old-timers lament.

Just as those who have been in war have a unique understanding.
They do not wish this understanding on others.

A couple truths:

If the art were not so popular and growing then there would not be the problems you lament over. This is neither bad nor good, it can not be controlled, it is just an inevitable affect of growth.

Every senior reminisces about how things were. Even the masters reminisce about how god-like their instructors were. This has not changed and never will. I would put it to you that thing that has changed is you! Just as you will never hear white belts make the comments you have made.

The masters learned that the scope of their arts are not just about killing, or as you have focused on H2H, that is why they changed the names of their arts from jitsu to Do.

As a martial artist (not a black belt) it is incumbent on us, to practice and learn what you are lamenting about. However, it is not our job to project where we are at our journey on society, the art, our students...
as you will surely drive them away.

In the DO, students come to you for hundreds of different reasons, of which H2H may be a small part. As a sahbum your job is to help them or not. It takes time and training to bring them to your level of understanding and it is not for many, only a few.

If you produce one student that can carry on what you have learned and your love of the art then you are a successful instructor my friend!

Send me an email with information about how we can hook up.
I would like to see your son compete.
Thanks!

That was better put than I ever could have, sir.

 

[azmyth]

I can lend a short and simple opinion on wht TKD has "fallen" while other arts have not.

Due to its popularity, people flock to it for exercise, conditioning, and fitness. Its the most readily available for this purpose. That and the fact that, in this day and age.. the usefulness of a hand to hand martial art is almost all but limited to bar fights, and MMA. Most people just don't study martial arts anymore for the "combat" aspect of it.

 

[dancingalone]

Most people just don't study martial arts anymore for the "combat" aspect of it.

Self-defense is certainly in the top three reasons why most people start studying a martial art. Heck, even the Krav Maga people who are famous for promoting the physical fitness side market their system as an effective self-defense system first and foremost.

Now if by the term "combat" you mean something other than SD, I agree with you.

 

[SageGhost83]

My apologies for generalizing. I am speaking merely from my own personal observations and do not seek to offend. Arlene Limas runs a dojang not too far from me (Powerkix; Stafford, VA.). I put down the money to train there and I was pretty impressed by the focus on self defense as opposed to sport. The dojang was not WTF, and now that I currently train in a WTF dojang, the differences are even more apparent. Everything that I have been learning at my current dojang is geared toward sparring tournaments and demo team - not exactly real world self defense, but extremely fun and good exercise, which are my own goals. Mrs. Limas competed in the olympics, but at her school, there wasn't too much of an olympic focus, at least not from what I saw. There was a greater focus on hand techs, more 50/50 balance between hand and foot techs. I think that they were ATA, I am not sure, will have to take another look. It seems that the orgs choose to focus on certain aspects, particularly WTF with the heavy focus on tournament sparring. That is why I cited the different orgs, but I could be wrong - just sharing my own humble viewpoint. I agree that a lot of the instructors should shoulder the blame, however, how much of blame? If they are under a certain org, then they must teach the appropriate curriculum as outlined by their governing body, lest they be in violation and risk being sanctioned. Perhaps some instructors *are* breaking away and creating more realistic curriculums (like Mrs. Limas) and that is why more schools are no longer associated with the WTF. Just food for thought. Btw, nice thread.

 

[IcemanSK]

My apologies for generalizing. I am speaking merely from my own personal observations and do not seek to offend. Arlene Limas runs a dojang not too far from me (Powerkix; Stafford, VA.). I put down the money to train there and I was pretty impressed by the focus on self defense as opposed to sport. The dojang was not WTF, and now that I currently train in a WTF dojang, the differences are even more apparent. Everything that I have been learning at my current dojang is geared toward sparring tournaments and demo team - not exactly real world self defense, but extremely fun and good exercise, which are my own goals. Mrs. Limas competed in the olympics, but at her school, there wasn't too much of an olympic focus, at least not from what I saw. There was a greater focus on hand techs, more 50/50 balance between hand and foot techs. I think that they were ATA, I am not sure, will have to take another look. It seems that the orgs choose to focus on certain aspects, particularly WTF with the heavy focus on tournament sparring. That is why I cited the different orgs, but I could be wrong - just sharing my own humble viewpoint. I agree that a lot of the instructors should shoulder the blame, however, how much of blame? If they are under a certain org, then they must teach the appropriate curriculum as outlined by their governing body, lest they be in violation and risk being sanctioned. Perhaps some instructors *are* breaking away and creating more realistic curriculums (like Mrs. Limas) and that is why more schools are no longer associated with the WTF. Just food for thought. Btw, nice thread.

Arlene Limas also has an extensive Kung Fu background as well. She had quite an uphill battle being recognized by the WTF/USOC just to get on the Olympic team. Given her background, it make sense that she would teach a more eclectic brand of MA.

 

[SageGhost83]

Good point, Iceman! I didn't think about that. Maybe that is why her school is not with WTF - her background in KF and her previous struggles with WTF. I humbly stand corrected.

 

[IcemanSK]

Good point, Iceman! I didn't think about that. Maybe that is why her school is not with WTF - her background in KF and her previous struggles with WTF. I humbly stand corrected.

I'm not sure I have it right, SageGhost, I just added those facts in. She was originally from Chicago (as were Juan Moreno & I). While I never trained or fought in those circles, I remember those struggles that she had. I figure that those struggles (& her previous background) have added to the mix of her school.

 

[exile]

Martial arts that are designed for combat on a battlefield or for serious self protection are about crippling or (by preference) killing people. The training is designed to let you kill as quickly and efficiently as possible without mercy or hesitation.If it's comprehensive it will teach you how to hold it together so that you can keep killing people as long as necessary.

Much as we try to sugar coat it "combat martial arts" teach people how to do nasty brutal things without quite crossing the line into insanity or criminality. That's because combat is nasty and brutal and frequently breaks men's minds or removes all their inhibitions. It's not suitable for kids. It's not "fun for the whole family" unless you've got a really strange family.

Most people don't really want it no matter what they say.

And this I think is the core of the answer to Terry's OP. The fact is, the norms that most of us are socialized to take as the default conditions on our behavior, and the realistic visualization of using the techniques of TKD—or any of the TMAS—to shatter an attacker's windpipe, break his neck vertebrae or smash his abdomen with a knee strike while holding him in place, and possibly doing severe damage to his internal organs as a result—fits badly with our expectations of how we are going to live. The conditions of life we enjoy in the West do not make available a cultural cubbyhole where perpetrating such violence in the course of everyday life can fit comfortably.

Iceman I was over in Korea training in the seventies and what we trained was not this sport stuff. Remember my father tought while he was serving the Marine corp. Although you are right about Wade, there are others on this board that was in Korea training in those H2H combat style of TKD. I know I was never in the military officially but growing up on military basis all over the world and training in some of these places puts me in the same boat.

TKD & the way is it taught (& to whom it is taught) has changed. It is now a "family sport" that teaches discipline, & respect as it's reason it is taught to kids. Heck, "take TKD & get better grades" is often the selling point of more than a few schools.

And the reason for that, I think, is precisely the need to find such a cultural niche where we can put our technical skill in MAs safely. Discipline for the kids, self-confidence for the timid, 'moving meditation' or spiritual guidance for those seeking such guidance, sport/spectacle for the competitive, physical fitness for the out-of-shape—all of them can provide a comfortable rationale for doing something whose fundamental purpose is so antithetical to the basic assumptions of our ordinary life.

If you produce one student that can carry on what you have learned and your love of the art then you are a successful instructor my friend!

As nice as you intend this statement to be, IMO it's flawed. Lets say that everything about that statement rings true, what happens if for any number of reasons, that student dosen't or can't carry on, then what happens to the knowledge and or the discipline in general?

As a martial artist (not a black belt) it is incumbent on us, to practice and learn what you are lamenting about

If it's not taught, then how can anyone learn or practice, what's being lamented about?

The masters learned that the scope of their arts are not just about killing, or as you have focused on H2H, that is why they changed the names of their arts from jitsu to Do.

The "Do" was part of the name TKD, before all this transition came about. The Masters learned that sport = money here in the states and inturn, many became business men instead of real teachers.

I agree with Brad that the Do vs. Jutsu nomenclature isn't—in itself—really significant in how the art is applied or thought of. The art that the Kwan founders took back from Japan translated as tang soo do and kong soo do in Korean—do in both cases; we all know that these were just literal translations of karate, and that the fearsome fighting techniques applied by the ROK infantry in two horrific wars constituted applications to military purposes of these do systems. The fact that they were described via Do didn't make them one bit less destructive to the North Korean and North Vietnamese communists. But I think it's also important to recognize that it's true: if we want that hard aspect of the MAs to persist, we have to teach it, and make it available to those whose interest in the MAs is primarily personal self-protection. That will always be a small minority of MA students, for the reasons I've tried to sketch above. But they are there, and are willing to train hard in the use of these combat systems against violent assailants. Attracting these people is the best way to ensure that an effective H2H SD version of the art survives.

What I'm saying, I think, is that the sport/spectacle 'deflection' of the original SD purpose of the MAs is itself a symptom of something deeper, one we probably don't like to think of too much: the basic badness of fit between, on the one hand, traditional MA arts geared for damaging effect in unarmed personal combat, and on the other, the expectations of the consumers of training in those arts in the late 20th/early 21st century western world. Those of us who view MAs as brutally effective survival tools first and foremost are always going to be in the great minority. We'd better get used to it and just try to carry on with our vision of what these MAs can do if you're ever unfortunate enough to have to fight for your life.