The pulling strike

[skribs]

Definition: I am defining a "pulling strike" as any strike in which, in addition to your arm or leg striking the opponent, you also use another arm or leg to pull the opponent into the strike. Examples I've used in my school or seen elsewhere:

• Pulling the head down while knee-striking to the body or head.
• Grabbing the back of the head with the left hand and elbow striking with the right hand.
• Pulling on their wrist or shirt to bring their head closer while you punch with the other hand.
• Hooking your foot around their knee and pulling them towards you while you punch.

In all of these cases, the pull does several things. It often positions them in a way that's easier to strike them (such as closer to your knee), and the pulling motion can affect any counters they may try to throw.

One thing it feels like the motion would do is increase the strength of the strike. Because not only do I have the striking motion, but I also have their motion towards it. If my punch is going at 45 FPS, and they're moving towards me at 10 FPS, then it would seem to suggest that my strike would be as if I was punching faster at 55 FPS.

This, to me, seems the most obvious use of these techniques, to add power to the strike. But, I'm also a fan of mythbusters, and I watched them prove that 2 cars going 50 MPH crashing into each other, they do the same damage as if one car had hit a wall at 50 MPH. The thought is that it's like hitting a wall at 100 MPH, but the tests didn't bear that out.

Then again, that was from the perspective of the crashing car (the punch) and not from the perspective of the wall. A stationary car might take less damage than a moving car, because it's not decelerating on impact.

Anyway, the question is - does this seem to add power to the strike? Is that seemingness accurate, or is it just something we think is happening? Or are the other reasons (setup, loss of balance) more important than the extra power we think is going into these?

 

[FriedRice]

I have no background in science, but while having someone in the full Muay Thai clinch and yanking them violently into my skip knees, it's going to hurt them a lot more. Without the pulling, then there's less impact as there's a give...with their body moving away due to the force.

That's why getting punched from above and downward when your head is lying flat on the ground is so much worse than when you're standing up so you're head can at least have space to snap away.

 

[CB Jones]

This, to me, seems the most obvious use of these techniques, to add power to the strike. But, I'm also a fan of mythbusters, and I watched them prove that 2 cars going 50 MPH crashing into each other, they do the same damage as if one car had hit a wall at 50 MPH. The thought is that it's like hitting a wall at 100 MPH, but the tests didn't bear that out.

Cars are designed to absorb energy in a crash.

With two cars crashing traveling 50 mph each....you have 2 vehicles both absorbing the energy....like sharing it.

A wall doesnt absorb energy....so all the energy is absorbed by the car.

If a wall traveling 50 mph were to hit a car traveling 50 mph you would see much more damage because the car absorbs the bulk of the energy.

Same way with the pulling strike....your target is absorbing the bulk of the energy.

 

[Martial D]

Definition: I am defining a "pulling strike" as any strike in which, in addition to your arm or leg striking the opponent, you also use another arm or leg to pull the opponent into the strike. Examples I've used in my school or seen elsewhere:

• Pulling the head down while knee-striking to the body or head.
• Grabbing the back of the head with the left hand and elbow striking with the right hand.
• Pulling on their wrist or shirt to bring their head closer while you punch with the other hand.
• Hooking your foot around their knee and pulling them towards you while you punch.

In all of these cases, the pull does several things. It often positions them in a way that's easier to strike them (such as closer to your knee), and the pulling motion can affect any counters they may try to throw.

One thing it feels like the motion would do is increase the strength of the strike. Because not only do I have the striking motion, but I also have their motion towards it. If my punch is going at 45 FPS, and they're moving towards me at 10 FPS, then it would seem to suggest that my strike would be as if I was punching faster at 55 FPS.

This, to me, seems the most obvious use of these techniques, to add power to the strike. But, I'm also a fan of mythbusters, and I watched them prove that 2 cars going 50 MPH crashing into each other, they do the same damage as if one car had hit a wall at 50 MPH. The thought is that it's like hitting a wall at 100 MPH, but the tests didn't bear that out.

Then again, that was from the perspective of the crashing car (the punch) and not from the perspective of the wall. A stationary car might take less damage than a moving car, because it's not decelerating on impact.

Anyway, the question is - does this seem to add power to the strike? Is that seemingness accurate, or is it just something we think is happening? Or are the other reasons (setup, loss of balance) more important than the extra power we think is going into these?

It certainly does.

While the physics for speed don't pan out, as you mentioned, that doesn't matter because those sorts of strikes move much slower anyway..when you are tied up you aren't as snappy.

The power comes from his inability to roll or give way to the strike(usually a clinch elbow or knee). A good striker can dissapate much of the force of incoming strikes with proper movement, but not so if you are being clinched or held.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Head on collision is all strikers try to achieve. When you punch, your opponent can

1. move toward you (-><-).
2. static (->|).
3. move away from you (->->).

For the result of striking 1 > 2 > 3.

This is why it's better to take your opponent down and punch him while he is on the ground because his body is not going anywhere (case 2 ->|).

The contact point is the key here. You want your strong point to meet your opponent's weak point. For example, your fist meets your opponent's nose.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Here's the explanation for the car vs wall experiment:

If you have car A and car B of equal mass each travelling 50 mph colliding head on, then car A is applying exactly the necessary force to bring car B to an almost immediate stop. We'll call this value 1B, where the value of B depends on the mass of the car. (Technically only the very front of the car stops immediately, but we'll treat the cars as point masses for simplicity's sake.)

If it's just car B running 50 mph directly into an immovable wall, then the wall also applies exactly the necessary force to bring the car to an almost immediate stop. Once again this value is 1B.

Compare those two scenarios to one where car A, travelling 50 mph, hits car B, which is sitting in neutral with the brakes off. Car A will keep moving, but will be slowed down. Car B will be accelerated into motion, but at much less than 50 mph. Calculating the exact value of the force applied to each car gets a little complicated, but at a first approximation it's probably about 1/2B.

Let's translate these concepts into your question regarding pulling strikes:

Hitting someone with a normal strike is analogous to the 3rd scenario listed above.

Hitting someone who is moving toward you (either on their own or being pulled) is analogous to the 2nd scenario above.

Hitting a target who is fixed in place (as in ground and pound from the mount) is analogous to the 1st scenario above.

The real world physics gets more complicated than that, since neither cars or people are actually point masses, but the bottom line is that pulling strikes can be a good option for adding power.

 

[Buka]

I don't know much about physics. My guess is the size and type of vehicle might matter. Like if one car is a really big truck instead.

I've found that comes into play with people. Trying to pull the big guys is really difficult, grabbing their head or neck, especially if they're tall, is impossible for me.

 

[marques]

Anyway, the question is - does this seem to add power to the strike? Is that seemingness accurate, or is it just something we think is happening? Or are the other reasons (setup, loss of balance) more important than the extra power we think is going into these?

I use it for elbow and knees. I don’t ever consider a knee without grabbing/pulling. It puts him in the right position, gives me stability and leverage, and the assurance if I end up on the ground I will not go there alone, it may distract the ones not used to clinch... and even it all fails, what is the issue? As long as can pull/push/grab (and he doesn’t) I am in control and it is a matter of time to finish the fight. Even blind, a point of contact gives plenty of crucial information about the opponent.

For elbows, pulling still helps. Gives to it more precision, harder to defend, and if we fail we do not end up in a bad position having this extra support. The opponent cannot deliver power if not in full control of his balance. Often he is more worried in reliese this control than attacking.

After all this, I think having the control over the opponent is more relevant than the extra power.

PS: Reading my stuff, it seems I am a striker thinking as a grappler...

 

[jobo]

Definition: I am defining a "pulling strike" as any strike in which, in addition to your arm or leg striking the opponent, you also use another arm or leg to pull the opponent into the strike. Examples I've used in my school or seen elsewhere:

• Pulling the head down while knee-striking to the body or head.
• Grabbing the back of the head with the left hand and elbow striking with the right hand.
• Pulling on their wrist or shirt to bring their head closer while you punch with the other hand.
• Hooking your foot around their knee and pulling them towards you while you punch.

In all of these cases, the pull does several things. It often positions them in a way that's easier to strike them (such as closer to your knee), and the pulling motion can affect any counters they may try to throw.

One thing it feels like the motion would do is increase the strength of the strike. Because not only do I have the striking motion, but I also have their motion towards it. If my punch is going at 45 FPS, and they're moving towards me at 10 FPS, then it would seem to suggest that my strike would be as if I was punching faster at 55 FPS.

This, to me, seems the most obvious use of these techniques, to add power to the strike. But, I'm also a fan of mythbusters, and I watched them prove that 2 cars going 50 MPH crashing into each other, they do the same damage as if one car had hit a wall at 50 MPH. The thought is that it's like hitting a wall at 100 MPH, but the tests didn't bear that out.

Then again, that was from the perspective of the crashing car (the punch) and not from the perspective of the wall. A stationary car might take less damage than a moving car, because it's not decelerating on impact.

Anyway, the question is - does this seem to add power to the strike? Is that seemingness accurate, or is it just something we think is happening? Or are the other reasons (setup, loss of balance) more important than the extra power we think is going into these?

I think its movie Or WWE stuff, apart from the knee, its difficult, almost impossible to pull and strike properly at the same time, at the very least yiu loose your forward movement, which will not be adequately compensated by their forward movement.

Ok fine if yiur already tied up in a grapple, theres nothing to loose, but to purposley get in close to pull them on to a strike is nonsense, all of which presuposses that your strong/ heavy enough to actually pull them and their going to stand there and let you and srnt going to use the forward movement to hit you with an elbow

 

[skribs]

I think its movie Or WWE stuff, apart from the knee, its difficult, almost impossible to pull and strike properly at the same time, at the very least yiu loose your forward movement, which will not be adequately compensated by their forward movement.

Ok fine if yiur already tied up in a grapple, theres nothing to loose, but to purposley get in close to pull them on to a strike is nonsense, all of which presuposses that your strong/ heavy enough to actually pull them and their going to stand there and let you and srnt going to use the forward movement to hit you with an elbow

A lot of the pulls I know involve subtle joint manipulations which make it very easy to pull someone, because you're not physically moving them, you're just steering them that way. And as @Martial D said, a big part is preventing the other person from rolling with the punch.

And most of these cases are times when you're already in close.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I think its movie Or WWE stuff, apart from the knee, its difficult, almost impossible to pull and strike properly at the same time, at the very least yiu loose your forward movement, which will not be adequately compensated by their forward movement.

Ok fine if yiur already tied up in a grapple, theres nothing to loose, but to purposley get in close to pull them on to a strike is nonsense, all of which presuposses that your strong/ heavy enough to actually pull them and their going to stand there and let you and srnt going to use the forward movement to hit you with an elbow

The pulling strike is effective for knees, elbows, and uppercuts. It also had some limited use for certain low kicks. It's not so effective for most other strikes as the pulling action interferes with the proper range and/or body mechanics. However for the strikes where it works, it works very well.

 

[skribs]

The pulling strike is effective for knees, elbows, and uppercuts. It also had some limited use for certain low kicks. It's not so effective for most other strikes as the pulling action interferes with the proper range and/or body mechanics. However for the strikes where it works, it works very well.

The pulling motion where you have their wrist and roll it in to tilt their shoulder down is very similar to the motion of the horse-stance punching done in TKD/Karate.

 

[Martial D]

I think its movie Or WWE stuff, apart from the knee, its difficult, almost impossible to pull and strike properly at the same time, at the very least yiu loose your forward movement,

No way dude. From a half plum you can easily throw some mean hooks, uppercuts and elbows. (Uppercuts feel the most natural to me from there, but your milage may vary)

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The switching hand is a pulling punch.

- You use right hand to pull your opponent's right arm down.
- You use left hand to pull his right elbow joint. This will free your right hand.
- You then punch right hand at your opponent's face.

 

[skribs]

The switching hand is a pulling punch.

- You use right hand to pull your opponent's right arm down.
- You use left hand to pull his right elbow joint. This will free your right hand.
- You then punch right hand at your opponent's face.

But does that motion just simply clear the guard, or does it affect the impact when it happens (either by pulling them into the punch or preventing them from rolling with the punch?).

I'm not arguing that the technique works, just whether it fits into this definition.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But does that motion just simply clear the guard, or does it affect the impact when it happens (either by pulling them into the punch or preventing them from rolling with the punch?).

I'm not arguing that the technique works, just whether it fits into this definition.

When you use switching hand, your elbow joint contact hand can be pulling, pushing, or redirecting. Most of the time, you want to borrow your opponent's resistance force to help you to move in fast. When you use it to pull, if your opponent is

- weaker than you, you will pull him into you.
- stronger than you, the counter force will pull you into him.

Either way, the end result will be the same.

In the following clip, it's clearly to see that the pulling can cause his opponent's head to move forward while his hand attacks his opponent's throat.

 

[jobo]

No way dude. From a half plum you can easily throw some mean hooks, uppercuts and elbows. (Uppercuts feel the most natural to me from there, but your milage may vary)

Not whilst in the act of pullng you cant, and they are alwzys going to be less efficient than having the correct range/ swing

 

[jobo]

The pulling strike is effective for knees, elbows, and uppercuts. It also had some limited use for certain low kicks. It's not so effective for most other strikes as the pulling action interferes with the proper range and/or body mechanics. However for the strikes where it works, it works very well.

Im trying to picure it ?

I hook their head And pull and then rotate by uper body to do an elbow strike, i either stop pulling or as i rotate, my pulling arm is taking them away from my elbow ?

 

[jobo]

A lot of the pulls I know involve subtle joint manipulations which make it very easy to pull someone, because you're not physically moving them, you're just steering them that way. And as @Martial D said, a big part is preventing the other person from rolling with the punch.

And most of these cases are times when you're already in close.

Well if your not Pulling them, its not a pull strike, is it, its a leading them that way strike ?

 

[skribs]

Well if your not Pulling them, its not a pull strike, is it, its a leading them that way strike ?

What I mean is if I grab your head I don't need to pull your whole body down. I just need to make your head move that way and your body will follow. Similarly, if I twist your wrist and pull your hand towards me, I'm getting your shoulder and head to come towards me.

What I mean is that I am pulling, and you're moving the way I want you to pull. But I'm not pulling your entire body. I'm getting a part of your body to move in such a way that the rest will follow. But it happens with a pull, and the body moves in the direction of the pull.