The Original Curiculum of Kajukenbo/Karazenpo

Joe Shuras

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Okay, no, the rank I recieved in Kajukenbo was from Professor Gerry Scott of Hawaii and it was not honorary and I didn't ask for it in any way, shape or form. This has all been discussed in depth on other threads and forums so I'll keep it short. Gerry made it a point to say it is not honorary. If it were, it would not be on the official Kajukenbo tree and it is. I have a 7th and 8th from SGM. Pesare and a 7th from GGM. Gascon. Another 7th from Prof. Jaime Abregana and Prof. John Pagdilao of Hawaii all recognizing my original 7th. Gerry and I just hooked up recently in Boston and discussed all this history. He is extremely knowledgable and I noticed John used his name among others in a recent post as a credible source to back up something he was debating. Any questions, please refer them to Professor Scott. Pm me if you want his e-mail address. I won't give his phone # w/o his permission.

From what I understood from John, Rich Fescina's rank with Kajukenbo is not honorary either, if I'm wrong I stand corrected but this is what I was told at the time. However, he does teach the Kenpo/Kempo from the same lineage as myself.

To Gufbal: Look at it this way, I am just as much an authority of Kajukenbo as John Bishop is on Karazenpo. Why do you ask me this and not him, in all due respect? He has been debating KGS history with the same passion as I retort back with Kajukenbo history and frankly, I'm sick of it. Again, I don't think you know our history on the various forums over these controversies. I will make an offer, John should stick with Kajukenbo history and keep out of KGS business and, by the same token, I'll stick with KGS history and keep out of Kajukenbo business. Fair enough? So, in a sense, I agree with you but you only saw one side of the coin - Joe

Let me calrify one thing that was posted by Dan earlier before I go on. He mentioned KGS history being updated after the death of Prof. Godin. This situation or revelation between Mr. Godin & Mr. Gascon took place before the death of Prof. Godin.

I have been sent a thesis written by you in 1989, John Evan Bishop, a slight correction from my last post it was October not November of 1989.

"The History and Evolution of Chinese Kenpo Karate A thesis submitted to Rosas Chino Kenpo Karate in partial fullfillment of the rquirements for the ran of Shodan Kenpo Karate October, 1989 Copyright pending by John Evan Bishop."

I see many similarities between our systems and lineages that John and Dan have chosen to pick us apart for in the past, sometimes being a little subtle and other times right out there in our faces. For instance, we're reminded George Pesare began with four forms but you never told me that Joe Rosas started with four forms, (page 65). Mr. Rosas was actually taught 5 katas (but dropped the 5th from his curriculum) but later created two more hand katas and two weapons kata for a total of 6 Empty hand and 2 Weapon. You also that many of the Kajukenbo instrcutors added techniques from other systems (the same as Mr. Pesare did) due to being distanced from the mother school by thousands of miles (page 49 & 65). These forms had elements of only up to the 6 short Kajukenbo pinans originally taught by Sijo Emperado. Rosas' instructor was Dan Guzman. You have Dan Guzman starting Kajukenbo in 1960 (after some training in kendo in the late 50's (page 61). You state he began teaching in 1961 and on August 1, 1963 promoted to black belt by Bill Ryusaki - page 61. You even stated you believed that Leoning's innovations were responsible for the foundation of what Rosas taught (the original forms). You never mentioned that before either in all these history exposes in our debates. Mr. Rosas developed a total of 25 punch counters for his system, this is, again, after he left, and once advanced, students had to learn them mirror image. Mr. Pesare developed 21 combinations after he left and at brown belt it was required to have them all down mirror image. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Villari's SKK has a standard of 26 combinations to 'shodan' with all done mirror image at brown. You state on page 25 Mr. Rosas first and only instructor was Dan Guzman and Guzman retired in 1972 (page 62). Note: Rosas later added 1 knife set containing 10 defenses against a knife and 2 Staff sets - page 64.

Joe Rosas started in 1964, made shodan in 1968 and nidan in 1969. You stated in October of '89, Dan Guzman was his one and only only instructor and that Guzman retired in 1972. (page 62). You state that Rosas just continued on his own to refine and develop his own perspective, actually stated 're-evaluating and improving' (page 64). Gee, sounds a little like Mr. Villari (and others)......anyway, Villari started in 1967 to 1971 under Nick Cerio, made nidan, (probationary) in 1971 and went on to do his own thing. Yet, you have posted in the past how Villari went his merry way (not your exact words but certainly your tone) after getting his probationary nidan from Cerio and promoted himself to 10th in his own organization/system, all said with a touch of sarcasim to say the least. You mention no rank of Mr. Rosas after 2nd dan ( page 62).


For the record, this is no slap at Joe Rosas at all for reading John's bio on him in his thesis, he appears to be an extremely talented and dedicated leader. Many martial artists in all styles and systems market their arts to make a living and essentially run it as a business and that's their perrogative but Mr. Joe Rosas, much like Mr. S. George Pesare and Mr. Victor 'Sonny' Gascon, is not really commerical and I commend and respect him for that. Mr. Rosas has promoted only 8 to black belts up to October of 1989, again, my hat goes off to him! (page 64). Mr. Rosas also taught for little monetary award and and Mr. Bishop witnessed him putting back into the program the money he was paid (page 63 & 64). Sounds like a helluva guy and a credit to his teachers and the martial arts in general.

You also have John Leoning dying of an aneurism in 1978 at 42 (page 58) when in fact he died at 50 in 1977 of a massive coronary. As I stated no one is 100 per cent in their reporting of history. I'm sure at the time you were convinced this to be fact.

There may be some here that do not see the points I have attempted to make regarding the similiarites in quantity of curriculum and other protocols, teaching criteria, dates, etc., that was a common thread among ALL the Hawaiian derived Kempo/Kenpo systems of that early era from the Mitose/Chow lineage, simply because they have not been following other threads and forums. All my examples are pertinent to prior discussions and heated debates or else I would have not wasted my time doing this 'homework'. Jesse, Matt, Mike, Peter and others can all attest to this. My whole point here is not to alienate us but to bring us together for we in this large Kempo/Kenpo extended family share many more similarities in background, history and function then we do differences. No one or art from this group is superior than any other.

All in all, it was an excellent thesis and I have great respect and admiration for John Leoning, Bill Ryusaki, Dan Guzman and Joe Rosas (the names I highlighted from the thesis).

Respectfully submitted, Prof. Joe Shuras - Massachusetts State president of the Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu Black Belt Society.
 

Joe Shuras

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Context is all. The "I heard this" was in reference to individuals and organizations, not "movments".



Seems that you're the one that jumped on this today Joe. John didn't mention anyone.



Ummm...PMs from un-named sources? Talk about unsubstantiated!



So you figured that you would go a drudge out all of this just in case it had all blown over and people had put it behind them? Nothing like trying to stir the pot by digging out old posts that people had forgotten about eh?


Dan, first of all John didn't have to mention any names, c'ome on now. Take a vote here if you want using pm's for those that know the history we have been debating for sometime now and see if they had any problem connecting the dots. Since Sonny Gascon is the founder of the KGS BBS, it does involve an organization. Let's not play word games here. To reitierate, there's no conspiracy theory going on here and I'm sorry if John did not expect a reaction after posting that, really now.......

Dan wrote: Ummm...PMs from un-named sources? Talk about unsubstantiated!

Dan, you're reaching on this one. Please do not take that out of context. Yes, it was the opinion of some of us on the thread that John was planting a few land mines on Matt's turf but we did not want to 'stir the pot' at the time and that's why the pm's were used. Don't believe it, that's your perrogative.

Dan, please.....the old posts I used is because whenever I put John on the spot on things he wrote in past, he would tell me to prove it, go find it and show me, remember? So, I did. Dan, you have stirred the proverbial pot many times, I don't think I would have to look to far on the various threads or forums to show that, you of all people should not accuse anyone else of the same...it's hypocritical. My intention was not to stir the pot, I just had it with all this b.s., perhaps now, we can finally all move on. I promised I would get back to you on your post, I did not write this to get any bad blood started. Take care & be safe, Joe
 

Joe Shuras

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Wow Joe you must of read back awhile, I had forgotten about the slappin' Matt and I got for Lumping certain people together. I think i was in Japan at the time. I think i only got angry when people were saying we "East Coasters" were looking for a bone from Sijo Emperado for identity.
//off subject// I just saw something at the top of my screen. In the bold Kajukenbo and its definition it has for "bo" (chinese boxing)//
Joe, thanks for the props, things have been a little crazy over the past few years and people's words have flip flopped, but i can see now that when you wrote things, you honestly thought it was the truth, and when you found out you were wrong you had no problem admitting to it and taking the blame. Joe, as a friend i will say, lets not go down this path again in this thread unless a defense is needed to someone else's attack. There will be no seeing eye to eye with everyone.
In Peace,
Jesse

Jesse, when we get into the history, as I have said countless times before, you can only go by what you are told from who you believe to be reliable sources and what written records exist and sometimes these are not correct or accurate. Once we find that out, we cannot go on perpetuating these myths, I do my best to make the corrections and move on. Some wish not to, fine, you can't change the world. I am in total agreement with you, let's all move on from here.

Rememeber in good faith, Nick Cerio had told some of us, myself included, that Circle of the Panther was based on George Pesare's #6 Kata, yet we could never see the connection. Then, Matt and myself did some digging and realized it was based on George Pesare's #7 Kata which also inspired SKK's Swift Tigers. Nick Cerio must have got them mixed up since at the time when he told me, it was like 26 years or more since he left Mr. Pesare's school. Prof. Cerio was a reliable source, how much more reliable can you get? lol, afterall, he created Panther from #7 kata, lol, see what I mean? Take care and be safe my brother, Joe
 

Joe Shuras

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Hey Joe,

"J.Madriaga" is not Mr. Mailman. The info on Kata 3 is on the report by J.Madriaga. Who he is I do not know. I was under the impression that he was with Corrigan Camp. Please give a buz when you get a chance.

Later,

Peter, so I don't have to search for your number in my archives (I'm burnt out right now from all this stuff, lol), e-mail it. Thanks, Joe
 

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Joe,
This last larger post comparing the similarities and development of the systems is by far one of the best i have read in awhile if not the best. Thank you for this one. I have to start printing these out. I am confusing the daylights out of my students with the changes in history. I require certain history questions per rank of my students. Sometimes written exams are given before the physical, If you do not pass the written you cannot pass the test. Now these questions were mostly created By Sigung Duncan out of NY over 10 years ago... needless to say some of them are obsolete now due to recent corrections of history.
In Peace
Jesse
 

Joe Shuras

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Joe,
This last larger post comparing the similarities and development of the systems is by far one of the best i have read in awhile if not the best. Thank you for this one. I have to start printing these out. I am confusing the daylights out of my students with the changes in history. I require certain history questions per rank of my students. Sometimes written exams are given before the physical, If you do not pass the written you cannot pass the test. Now these questions were mostly created By Sigung Duncan out of NY over 10 years ago... needless to say some of them are obsolete now due to recent corrections of history.
In Peace
Jesse

Thanks Jesse but it all came from John's thesis, that's why I referenced all the page numbers so everything would be accurate in my reporting from the source. As you know, I've had my differences with John but I call it like it is and that was a damn good thesis. There is much more there, something like 70 pages in all, but I felt what I posted summed up and supported what I have been saying. I'd love to give you a copy, along with Matt, Mike and Peter but it says 'copyright pending' and I have to respect that.

Jesse stated: "I am confusing the daylights out of my students with the changes in history." "Now these questions were mostly created By Sigung Duncan out of NY over 10 years ago... needless to say some of them are obsolete now due to recent corrections of history."

Jesse, exactly what I have been going through and it started with the history of James Mitose, that's what Bruce Corrigan cued me in on years ago. Yes, like you, whenever I had historical information, I thought it to be accurate due to the sources, etc. and would print it in good faith. However, now, I am very cynical and suspicious of everything, lol.

Hey, just explain to them about the twists and turns in all history, not just the martial arts but history period and always remember, the history we get of anything comes from the perspective of the historian. Imagine 100 years from now the variety of what will be written about this time period of World History if the historians were a Democrat, a Republican, Independant, far left, far right or came from France, Russia, Germany, Spain and Iran! If we could view it today we'd probably jump up and down and yell: Hey, that's not how it went down, I was there, I lived it! Such is history, we can only do the best we can. Take care my friend, your brother, Joe
 

Joe Shuras

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Jesse, here is something Bruce Corrigan had posted on MAP a little while ago in case you missed it.

18-Jan-2007, 11:03 PM
kalista65
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The following message is from Bruce Corrigan


This is not my logon and I rarely make any contribution to any forum. However, I felt compelled since I keep seeing my name used for purposes of quoting things. I have no problem being quoted, but there is always a danger in being misquoted. These forums are like the newspaper; if people see it on a forum, they tend to believe it as gospel. With that, I will add my 2 cents for what it is worth.

1. There should never be a dispute between KAJUKENBO and KARAZENPO GO SHINJUTSU. Time has made these two very separate things. It would be just as absurd to have Shotokan members arguing with Shorin Ryu members. It needs to go to sleep. Also, all who dispute it need to take a break!
2. Realize that all who are viewed as experts might not be experts. Verbal history changes over time. The story surrounding all martial arts systems has been largely verbal since they each began. Can anyone really remember the specific date they met someone, or promoted every person? Believe me, there has been a lot of backdating of certificates, denial of previous promotions, unfounded claims, etc. So who knows who is telling the truth or is accurate. Better yet, who really cares, and does it REALLY matter? Every person begins their own lineage. There is no need to look for identity if you already have it. If you dont have an identity, you wont get it tying your name to another.
3. Today we have hundreds of schools teaching Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) and MMA is the hottest thing. SO, who has the authentic MMA, and who is teaching it correctly. Better yet. Who should judge? Same goes here Sonny Gascon once said to me: this is America, everyone can teach what they want.
4. Realize, there is no Authentic Way the way has changed so much no one knows what is the first way. Hell, I learned each form at least 4 different ways. Funny thing is that each teacher told me this was the authentic way.
5. About Sonny Gascon and Karazenpos beginning. I know for a fact he started with his own students around 1958, and I know he formalized the name Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu shortly after. I even have a copy of his original business license. I have my differences with SiJo Gascon, but no one can dispute his formation of what we call Karazenpo. So saying anything about his authenticity is total nonsense. Karazenpo is his, and he can do or say whatever he likes because Sonny fears no one.
6. George Pesare Here is the man with the knowledge he is the lion of Kempo. Old school knowledge, and knowledge put to the test. I have my differences with George also, but he is what I consider the major catalyst for Kempo in America. I know this is a bold statement, but count how many have descended from him in one way or another. I like to think that I began the history revolution of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu. However, without George, we still wouldnt know about Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu. When I met George, he didnt know whether Sonny Gascon was alive or dead, but on the first night I met him, he told me Sonnys name and paid credit and reverence to him. I have heard that there are problems between Sonny and George today. No matter what, I know for a fact that George has always shown respect for Sonny Gascons name, even to me, even when I was a stranger in Georges presence.
7. Joe Shuras Hes the real deal, and if he says anything.it is with sincerity. He may not always be accurate, but he is no liar and doesnt have to be. I dont want to even begin to get involved with KGSBBS politics, and I am beyond a doubt not associated with them nor wish to be. BUT if I had a vote, Joe should be the 9th degree.

OK, so who is responsible for what techniques and what forms? Who the hell cares??? Just do them, or choose not to.but arguing about it is fruitless. This method began almost 50 years ago. Who can say what was 20 years ago, let alone 50.

 

Joe Shuras

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And here's something from Matt Barnes:

Quote:
Philip Gelinas (kenbocan@dsuper.net) Subject: Re: Sonny Gascon / shaolin kempo
View: Complete Thread (2 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Date: 1998/02/07
MattBarnz wrote:
> > I visited the site where the karazenpo go shinjutsu folks posted the Sonny
> Gascon story and was very interested. Does anyone have any additional > information on this group or Sonny Gascon. My feeble browser (on my feeble
> computer) wouldn't let me access the whole site. Are there any members of the
> association that post? I have been trying to gather a comprehensive history of
> the kempo arts (parker/ non- parker) and have found many interesting postings,
> but am still trying to fill in many gaps. Please feel free to reply to the
> group or to email me as you feel is appropriate.
>
> Thank you for your time,
>
> Matt
>
mattbarnz@aol.com

Sonny Gascon is indeed the real deal. He was the instructor for east coast pioneer/legend George Pesare in the late 50's -early 60's and a legitimat student of Kajukenbo under Adriano Emperado before that. I know this to be true as I am the official keeper of the kajukenbo family tree as aknowleged by Sijo Emperado, and many more persons too extensive to list here. Bruce Corrigan, the keeper of the Karazenpo Goshin Jitsiu web site made his original connections to Sonny Gascon via information I was able to provide. P Gelinas
 

Danjo

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Okay, no, the rank I recieved in Kajukenbo was from Professor Gerry Scott of Hawaii and it was not honorary and I didn't ask for it in any way, shape or form. This has all been discussed in depth on other threads and forums so I'll keep it short. Gerry made it a point to say it is not honorary. If it were, it would not be on the official Kajukenbo tree and it is.

Okay, so if it's not honorary, how did you earn it? How much Kajukenbo did you study and when did you test for rank in Kajukenbo before getting the certification?
 

Danjo

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And here's something from Matt Barnes:

Quote:
Philip Gelinas (kenbocan@dsuper.net) Subject: Re: Sonny Gascon / shaolin kempo
View: Complete Thread (2 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Date: 1998/02/07
MattBarnz wrote:
> > I visited the site where the karazenpo go shinjutsu folks posted the Sonny
> Gascon story and was very interested. Does anyone have any additional > information on this group or Sonny Gascon. My feeble browser (on my feeble
> computer) wouldn't let me access the whole site. Are there any members of the
> association that post? I have been trying to gather a comprehensive history of
> the kempo arts (parker/ non- parker) and have found many interesting postings,
> but am still trying to fill in many gaps. Please feel free to reply to the
> group or to email me as you feel is appropriate.
>
> Thank you for your time,
>
> Matt
> mattbarnz@aol.com

Sonny Gascon is indeed the real deal. He was the instructor for east coast pioneer/legend George Pesare in the late 50's -early 60's and a legitimat student of Kajukenbo under Adriano Emperado before that. I know this to be true as I am the official keeper of the kajukenbo family tree as aknowleged by Sijo Emperado, and many more persons too extensive to list here. Bruce Corrigan, the keeper of the Karazenpo Goshin Jitsiu web site made his original connections to Sonny Gascon via information I was able to provide. P Gelinas

Well, for completeness sake, here's one from SGM Pesare:

"From: "GEORGE PESARE" <gpesare7@hotmail.com>
To: fssd@sbcglobal.yahoo.com, Jake.Hansen@polycom.com
CC: jshuras@hotmail.com
Subject: RE: Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu and Chinese Kempo
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 21:06:38 -0400





HELLO DAVID
THANK YOU FOR YOUR COMMUNICATION REGARDING THE KARAZENPO-GO-SHINJUSTSU, I REALIZE YOU PROBABLY HAVE MANY QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT YOU TEACH, UNFORTUNATELY IN THAT AREA THEIR ARE MANY DOUBLE CROSSINGS AND LIES THAT HAVE COMPLETELY FALSIFIED THE TRUE KENPO/KEMPO MARTIAL ARTS, AND UNFORTUNATELY GODIN AND GASCON ARE SOME OF THE CULPRITS.


VICTOR GASCON AND WALTER GODIN WERE BROTHER IN LAWS, VICTOR HAD MARRIED GODIN'S SISTER GRACE, EVENTUALLY THEY GOT DIVORCED, GASCON AND GODIN HAD A FALLING OUT WITH EMPERADO, SO GASCON AND GODIN FOUNDED A NAME NOT A STYLE, BECAUSE WHAT GASCON KNEW WAS TAUGHT TO HIM BY "JOHN LEONNING" SO GODIN AND GASCON CALLED THEIR SYSTEM KGS, BUT IT WAS THE SAME AS TAUGHT BY JOHN LEONNING, SO GO FIGURE THAT,,..

VICTOR'S SCHOOL WAS SMALL AND GODIN GOT DISINTERESTED AND WENT BACK TO HAWAII, SHORTLY THERAFTER VICTOR FOLLOWED SUIT, AND NEITHER TAUGHT KENPO KARATE IN HAWAII BECAUSE THE HAWAIIANS ALL NEW THE MARTIAL ARTS AND THEY COULD NOT TEACH ANYTHING NEW, (CONTRARY TO POPULAR BELIEF) GODIN LIVED LIKE A BUM AND GASCON WENT TO WORK FOR THE UNION "BREAKING LEGS" AND RETIRED FROM THE MARTIAL ARTS COMPLETLY UNTIL THE FAMOUS DAY THAT SOMEONE TOLD THEM THAT THEY COULD MAKE MONEY FROM THE HOULE'S "MAINLAND DOPES"..

YOU ASKED QUESTIONS, AND I ANSWERED THEM A BIT, I LIVED AMONG THESE PEOPLE AND EARNED MY BLACK BELT, AND RETURNED AND FOUNDED KENPO/KEMPO KARATE IN NEW ENGLAND IN 1960, GO ON LINE AND REQUEST "GEORGE PESARE" YOU MAY BE SURPRISED, TO KEEP THE RECORD STRAIGHT, I TAUGHT NICK CERIO, AND NOT FRED VILLARI, I LEAVE THAT HONOR TO NICK CERIO.

YOU MAY THINK WHAT YOU ARE READING IS A LOT, NO MY FRIEND, WHAT I WROTE IS WHAT YOU CAN SEE THROUGH THE EYE OF A NEEDLE, IF YOU WISH MORE, LET ME KNOW.
S. GEORGE PESARE

"WE WILL BE KNOWN FOREVER"
" BY THE TRACKS WE LEAVE" "
 

RevIV

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Okay, so if it's not honorary, how did you earn it? How much Kajukenbo did you study and when did you test for rank in Kajukenbo before getting the certification?


You should ask your seniors what Prof. Shuras did to get his rank. He was told that it was not Honorary. Or do you think that would be disrespectful to question the seniors in your organization? I remember you saying once that you do not ask when you will test, your teacher will tell you when you are ready. This holds true for us too. Then again, if this is not an Honorary rank, this makes Prof. Shuras your senior, in your system. Making the very question disrespectful?
In Peace,
Jesse
 

RevIV

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Oh I love these discussions and the information is great! Thank you to all the "old" timers posting. I refer to the term "old" timer as a very respectfull salute :)

Ok the original curriculum that was being taught in the kajukenbo system that was brought over to the mainland by Sonny Gascon before the falling out. Actually before the group broke up?

Is that similar to the old Panther Videos that Gary Forbach had out? (actually are those still available?)

I love cross referencing the information.

There is oneside and then there is the otherside, the truth usually is in the middle. :)

Is it possible to list the curriculum from back then? To get a time line going to what we have today?

Rather then having a black belt family tree, create a curiculum family tree and see who and what was changed?

To the original question, Joe, is the KGS book still coming out? Will it contain the original material taught? This would be a great thing to have in anyones references. Is there a manual of techniques of the Original Method of Kajukenbo Mr. Bishop? This would be an excellent way to cross reference. You list the techniques required but are they written down for the public to see?
Jesse
 

John Bishop

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To the original question, Joe, is the KGS book still coming out? Will it contain the original material taught? This would be a great thing to have in anyones references. Is there a manual of techniques of the Original Method of Kajukenbo Mr. Bishop? This would be an excellent way to cross reference. You list the techniques required but are they written down for the public to see?
Jesse

This topic is 2 1/2 years old. I thought most of the original questions were asked and answered back then.

To you Jesse, there is no official manual of Kajukenbo techniques, there are video recordings of the techniques of the "Original Method".
The first 9 tape series was produced by Panther Productions in 1986, and certified by Sijo Emperado.
The second 8 tape series was done in 1991 by "Emperado's World Kajukenbo Organization", certified by Sijo Emperado, and also the "International Kajukenbo Association" (the governing body for Kajukenbo at the time).
A video documentation of the 26 "Alphabet" techniques was also produced by MAD Productions in 2004.
These are the historical record of the techniques of the "Original Method" of Kajukenbo. This method is also known as the "Original Hard Style Method", or "Kenpo Karate Branch".
So yes the techniques are there for everyone to see.
There are other branches of Kajukenbo, but these came after Karazenpo, so they wouldn't have any value in a comparrison to Karazenpo or Shaolin Kempo.
Mr. Villari has also documented his system in a series of video tapes. So in this media rich age, it's pretty easy to make comparrisons between Kajukenbo and Shaolin Kempo.
Now until the Karazenpo people document their techniques in written or video form, your probably not going to be able to bridge the gap between Kajukenbo and Shaolin Kempo.

As to discussions of who has what rank.
This has been discussed quit a bit by the Kajukenbo seniors. In July of last year in a meeting of The Council of Grandmasters, it was discussed again, as was the Kajukenbo Family Tree.
The feeling of most of the seniors concerning rank is this:

There are basically 3 forms of black belt rank in Kajukenbo;

"Tested rank", which is self explanitory.
"Earned rank", which is awarded to higher ranking black belts who no longer are required to test. It is "earned" by their many years of dedication to the practice and/or teaching of Kajukenbo.
"Honorary rank", which can be awarded for many reasons, but usually only to someone who has a lineage connection to Kajukenbo.

As to the "Kajukenbo Family Tree". The project started in the 80's to try and keep track of the Kajukenbo black belts around the world. And also to verify who was a Kajukenbo black belt, as many were claiming to be who were not.
The tree grew into a huge project, with many groups wanting to be listed on it to show their "roots".
Well the official family tree is here for all to see (at least the 2005 edition).

http://www.leewardkenpokarate.com/tree/tree.htm

It is in no way a indicator of "who is Kajukenbo". As you can plainly see, Sonny Gascon, George Pesare, Nick Cerio, and many others who ARE NOT, and have NEVER claimed to be Kajukenbo stylists, are listed on it.
They have been added to it by THEIR request, to show a historical lineage to Kajukenbo. Not as a way to claim rank in Kajukenbo.
 

Danjo

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You should ask your seniors what Prof. Shuras did to get his rank. He was told that it was not Honorary. Or do you think that would be disrespectful to question the seniors in your organization? I remember you saying once that you do not ask when you will test, your teacher will tell you when you are ready. This holds true for us too. Then again, if this is not an Honorary rank, this makes Prof. Shuras your senior, in your system. Making the very question disrespectful?
In Peace,
Jesse

Asking when I will be testing and asking when someone else tested are two different matters. The first is disrespectful because it indicates that your instructor is being remiss in letting you know. The second is totally normal and reasonable. It's why people have certificates etc. etc. It is not supposed to be a secret when someone tested for rank. To my mind, if you hold rank in an art that you never trained in, then that rank is honorary.
 

RevIV

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This topic is 2 1/2 years old. I thought most of the original questions were asked and answered back then.

To you Jesse, there is no official manual of Kajukenbo techniques, there are video recordings of the techniques of the "Original Method".
The first 9 tape series was produced by Panther Productions in 1986, and certified by Sijo Emperado.
The second 8 tape series was done in 1991 by "Emperado's World Kajukenbo Organization", certified by Sijo Emperado, and also the "International Kajukenbo Association" (the governing body for Kajukenbo at the time).
A video documentation of the 26 "Alphabet" techniques was also produced by MAD Productions in 2004.
These are the historical record of the techniques of the "Original Method" of Kajukenbo. This method is also known as the "Original Hard Style Method", or "Kenpo Karate Branch".
So yes the techniques are there for everyone to see.
There are other branches of Kajukenbo, but these came after Karazenpo, so they wouldn't have any value in a comparrison to Karazenpo or Shaolin Kempo.
Mr. Villari has also documented his system in a series of video tapes. So in this media rich age, it's pretty easy to make comparrisons between Kajukenbo and Shaolin Kempo.
Now until the Karazenpo people document their techniques in written or video form, your probably not going to be able to bridge the gap between Kajukenbo and Shaolin Kempo.

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Excellent, thank you very much Mr. Bishop. I will look for these tapes for my collection. I truly hope the the KGS system comes out with their original material, I would like to compare it to my own which is many generations down the line... Danjo, i understand both of your statements on asking when you are testing and asking when someone tested. But i your sentence started with this " how did you earn it? How much Kajukenbo did you study " then ended with when you got it. This i could consider as disrespectful and others may not.
In Peace
Jesse
 

Danjo

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Danjo, i understand both of your statements on asking when you are testing and asking when someone tested. But i your sentence started with this " how did you earn it? How much Kajukenbo did you study " then ended with when you got it. This i could consider as disrespectful and others may not.
In Peace
Jesse

All are reasonable questions. When he got it would be irrelevant unless the other questions were also answered.
 

RevIV

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All are reasonable questions. When he got it would be irrelevant unless the other questions were also answered.

What if you do not like the answer.. He still has the rank, and he was told that it was not an honorary. Does this make your senior instructors who signed the diploma wrong? People talk about other organizations doing it, but when its in your own house it seems different. Mr. Bishop says there are a few people who are on the Kajukenbo tree, but are not Kajukenbo. This i do not understand. I have not looked at the tree, but is there a disclaimer that states this, or only people reading this forum aware of this fact?
Jesse
 

John Bishop

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Mr. Bishop says there are a few people who are on the Kajukenbo tree, but are not Kajukenbo. This i do not understand. I have not looked at the tree, but is there a disclaimer that states this, or only people reading this forum aware of this fact?
Jesse

Just click on the link and look at the tree. There's probably over a 100 people on the tree who are not Kajukenbo, and don't claim to be. You'll probably recognize George Pesare and many of his black belts on the tree. Nick Cerio and several of his black belts. Craig Seavey, John James, Bill Gregory, Bruce Corrigan, Lou Farralon, Roger Carpenter, Paula Pucino, and many more.
 
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